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Back to Basics D&D campaign

Quite frankly, I thought I defined it adequately with . . .
You may think so, but none of us were getting that. Likely because most of us see the term "basics" or "back to the basics" to mean something very much different that you're seeming to.

Another way of saying what you are asking would be, "what are the classes and prestige classes that are seen as redundant with the original PHB classes as possible while also epitomizing an iconic role from the PHB classes?" I think a clearer word would be "back to the essence of D&D". ;)

Hmm . . .
 
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If you like Beguiler as "mage/thief done right" I would recommend you look again at Duskblade as "fighter/mage done right" also in the PHB II. I also think that the Knight is worth a look as a tank that isn't too far off the beaten track (also in the PHB II)

And Warlock has obvious advantages to a DM -- it is the "no paperwork" mage! Easy to make, easy to use, plenty of "Bad Guy" flavour. It is also great for players like me that want a magic-user type without having to worry about spell slots or spell points. For your world, since there is no "fiendish blood" you might have to reflavour where they get their powers from (the fey is always a good choice). One thing that they are not is over powered though. A wizard/sorcerer will outclass them fairly soon, level progression-wise. Basically they are magical archers.

I think Scout is a great choice, myself, and would include it.

By the way, are you more concerned about "PHB classes" as such, or about power levels? If the latter, you might want to look at the threads on Tiers (Tier 1 includes powerhouses like the Wizard) and judge what Tier you would like the pcs to be.

One class you might look at is Factotum from Dungeonscape. It is definitely not overpowered, but is an interesting fighter/cleric/mage/rogue.

Race-wise, what are your feelings on subraces? Are there many types of "elf" or only one?
 

I concur with Dandu that warlocks are not too powerful.

They can be very flavorful if done properly.

Use Complete Mage and the fey/fiendish heritage feat chain to pull out their "history" - otherwise they can be kind of limited using only Complete Arcane invocations and feats..

Warlocks tend to be loners and not real effective in party support - almost all of their abilities are of the self-only type.

Big advantage is their UMD expertise - so that can play well depending on how the campaign is structured.

A good flavorful class is the artificer (from Eberron Campaign setting)

Another nice thing (for flavor) is allowing racial substitution levels for classes (in many different books)
 

Warmage: That's why I'm iffy on Warmage; it tends to be a blaster and I would prefer more rounded arcanes. If you want to blast things just be a blasted Sorc/Wiz.

They're not bad, but I prefer both the Battle Sorcerer and Duskblade for solo-class warrior/wizard hybrids. The former is a more flexible caster- you can blast, control, or whatever caster role you prefer- and the latter is a better warrior.

Warlock: I've always thought the warlock was more like what a Sorcerer should've been and it seems to naturally fit with Sorc/Wiz. I, too, wonder if it might be too powerful.

Not a big fan of the 3.5 Warlock, but not because of its power. I just didn't like its flavor. Something about it just felt flat to me. However, that aside, its definitely not an overpowered class, and it is dead simple to run.
 

Another class I like that is definitely not overpowered (underpowered if anything, but IMO just on the low end of balance like a warlock) is a soulknife.

It is a way of playing psionic while not playing psionic.

No powerpoints (well it does get 2 pp from the wild talent feat - but has no access to powers to spend them on), no psionic powers - use magic-psionic transparency and it is producing a blade of "magic"

It is also a pretty simple class to run.
 


The basic idea is God destroyed most of the world over a thousand years ago. The PCs live in a heavily populated city where no one goes adventuring because it's far too dangerous. They will be the first in over a hundred years. As far as anyone knows there is no civilization in the world beyond the city itself (just bad guys: orcs, goblins, monsters, etc.).

OK, but by extension that would imply there's nobody very powerful in the city, which in turn means that the PC's will rapidly become nigh-unstoppable in their home town. Personally, I'm seeing some sort of grand conspiracy: there actually is a thriving civilisation* out there and the Powers That Be know it, but the city fathers are preventing anyone finding out (and coming back to tell the tale) for nefarious reasons Yet To Be Revealed...

If you want to bring a scenario like yours to life, you'll need to think carefully about stuff like "where's all the damn food** coming from?" and "what do they use for money?" along with more game-mechanical questions like "in a closed economy with no adventurers, are the PC's going to have to make all their own magical clobber, or what?". But I'm sure you know that :)

As plenty of people have offered their opinions of the classes you listed in general, I'll try and stay focussed on the campaign you've described.

Scout: Without PrC's, this class is a half-assed ranger/rogue with a wobbly niche, but it's certainly not unbalancing. If you like it, what the hell... It makes sense that a civilisation forced to stay inside big stone walls due to the excessive scariness outside would have a cadre of dedicated, military-trained lookouts who specialise in threat intelligence and staying out of sight.

Warlock: Not going to break anybody's game (even with Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion shenanigans they only just keep up with blasty-focussed Sorcerors) but if you're down on infernal influences, you might want to re-flavour the class to be more generally fey-tasting or somesuch. In such an insular and population-dense environment - one, moreover, that's not at all familiar with adventurers and the eldritch - someone with a whiff of the brimstone about them is going to last maybe a week before being granted a forcible appointment with the nearest bonfire.

There's nothing like someone slightly scary to get a cowardly mob baying for blood.

If you can side-step the diabolical/infernal origins and have all your Warlocks derive from a more palatable heritage, I can see them playing a prominent role.

Beguiler: Hooray for you, Beguilers are great. They're balanced, flavourful and generally good times all around. Not only that, but they're a natural evolution of spellcasters in an all-urban, humanoid-only environment... They'll be hell on legs in your City of Wusses though, be warned.

Dungeon Delver: Well, I don't know what the circumstances are that lead you to want to include it, but a Rogue-based PrC that specialises in spelunking - in a world where all the "civilised" inhabitants live in one big city they've been too scared to leave in a century - seems a little dissonant with the note you're trying to strike.

Master Specialist: Again, fair enough on the game balance front, but... Surely a culture that supports Wizards to the extent where they not only have specialists, but have a PrC for really special specialists, can't be the same culture that's so wimpy nobody ever goes out for a picnic because of the Orcs, can it?

Here's the thing... Wizards require infrastructure, more than possibly any other class. They need ink and paper (or the local equivalent). They need torts, alembics, leibig condensers, lenses, prisms and other complicated glassware, along with the requisite twisty metal things to hold them. They need alchemical supplies: acids, alkalis, bizarre reagents, bits of animals, good-quality fuels (for a constant heat source) and goodness-knows what else. Which means, in turn, they either need to have the skills to make all of those things themselves, or they need (among others) blacksmiths, charcoal burners, pigment grinders, chandlers, dyers, tanners, glassblowers, miners and so on. Unless they research all of their spells (for which they presumably need books or other research material) they have to learn them from scrolls or other Wizards' spellbooks.

A lot of the stuff they'd need or want is not going to be required by the common people, or even the majority of the elite in the scenario you posit, so who's going to be selling it? I'm not saying you can't explain this away, but the traditional view of Wizard is very much high-culture: even if he lives in a remote tower on a mountain fastness, he's getting his parchment and wand-making materials from somewhere. If the citizens of your postulated setting had even a significant minority of Wizards in the general populace, it's inconceivable that they couldn't have gained ground in the last 1,000 years. Hell, it's hard to imagine how any "high culture" could survive under such circumstances without expanding over that sort of time frame.

This is why I reckon there must be power - real power - in the city somewhere, but it's kept out of the hands of the proletariat. This would have to include such things as books of magic and the paraphernalia necessary to do things like brew potions or make fancy inks for spellbooks. After all, the underlying premise of D&D classes is that anyone with the right attitude and high enough stats can tell the laws of physics to get stuffed, so controlling the means by which people can do that is going to be necessary.

Goodness knows what happens to born Warlocks or Sorcerors, but I'm guessing it isn't pretty. Hmmm...

So unless your PC's are members of the ruling elite, it's hard to see them having access to the training, equipment, general backup infrastructure and peer recognition necessary to become a real Wizard, let alone a Master Specialist. The very name of the class implies that "there are Wizards, then there are Specialist Wizards... and then there are Master Specialists!"

That's why I'm going to fly in the face of most of the advice here and say that if you're going to ban an arcane class, Wizard should probably be it. It's hard for anyone to prevent a Sorceror from slipping under the radar, and indeed it's possible that your culture would encourage a certain number of people to become Warlocks, Sorcerors (of the blasty kind) and/or Warmages for defence purposes. Give them a high cultural status and/or lots of material privileges and you can guarantee that anyone with the ability will come forward for "testing". These tests might well have a high casualty rate (as the "untrainables" - i.e. those with truly independent attitudes - are weeded out) but you can't make an omelette without breaking some spontaneous casters, eh?

Sure, they're powerful but they're a limited threat so long as you can keep them focussed on trivia like setting Orcs' trousers on fire with their minds instead of real world-shattering stuff. And of course, if you keep them indoctrinated and a close eye on their progress, you can always arrange for an honourable "death in the line of duty" if they go off the rails and learn spells or invocations that might threaten the status quo.

Wizards though... Wizards are trouble right out the box. They're driven to seek out arcane knowledge both new and ancient, and their potential repertoire of powers is limited only by the number of spellbooks they can hide. You'd never be sure.

Ultimate Magus: From your statement on the class, you already know these guys can drive your game off the rails. Plus, see above for my rationale for potentially removing prepared arcane casters (at least until your PC's get away from the city and discover "written-down magic" for the first time)... but on the other hand, what a cover this PrC would make for someone secretly bucking the system!

"I can't understand why Geldram isn't making better progress with his magic missiles, my Lord: he seems talented enough and his neighbours tell me he's up all night practising..."

Holt Warden: Keep it as backup. The PC's will presumably encounter NPC's outside the city; maybe they find some sort of sylvan hippy commune of wild elves deep in a forest, led by a Holt Warden.

Favored Soul: Again, not going to break the game. This civilisation of yours would probably be keeping a close eye on them (and Clerics) though. That's assuming there are any Clerics out in the open.

God destroyed the world, you say? Now there's a reason to hold a grudge: I've never seen a scenario more suited to the emergence of Ur-Priests... although you'll definitely want to tone down the spell progression. Maybe make it a 20-level base class; essentially just reflavoured Clerics who steal rather than beg their divine mojo?

WarMage: See above. An entire culture with a foxhole mentality is probably going to be devoting a significant proportion of its resources (wherever they come from) to defence. Far better to channel those with natural magical talent into limited-focus spontaneous casting useful for blowing up people with green skin than into potentially unbounded areas of magic. Even if there's no conspiracy in the background of the city, your very-high-density society at large is going to be more comfortable with someone who's basically a walking siege engine than they are with someone who summons scary extraplanar monstrosities.

Godzilla.

Tokyo.

Yeah.

So what do you guys think should be included that are pretty close (power-wise/flavor-wise) to the basics? What definitely shouldn't?

There are plenty of other classes you could include that would contribute to the campaign flavour, but all the major niches are exploited by your current selection, so anything else is just gravy. In the quest to fulfill the utmost mechanical potential of a concept - and because of the HUGE numbers of PrC and other character options to help people do that - it's now pretty common to forget just how well a shortlist of classes can fill pretty much any role you can imagine. They may not look that great when compared to the super-optimised combos that happen when every book is available, but if those other options just plain don't exist, the core classes (with a few of the better-balanced alternatives thrown in) do just fine. If you feel something's lacking from the mix once you're in play, throw in an NPC for the party to learn from.

Like cooking, it's a damn sight easier to introduce new ingredients when you need them than it is to take them back out again if you don't like the results. :)

*Quite possibly it's a civilisation of Giant Radioactive Mutant Cockroaches.
**Metal, wood, clay, raw materials for textiles, earths for dyeing...
 

Persiflage's take on Wizards in that kind of environment is dead on: I have a post-apocalyptic campaign setting of my own, and while I didn't ban them, I made clear that the infrastructure for such formalized learning- the high quality writing supplies, teachers and even basic literacy- simply was rare as flumfh teeth. I had an almost AD&D-ish system of spell rarity: a given scroll or tome would most likely contain fragments of PHB spells, those from others being much rarer, and what spells you actually learned were determined randomly (Spellcraft check; specialists got bonuses within their school) rather than chosen. This reflected the fact that wizards were learning their spells by research coupled with assembling fragments of arcane writings. IOW, no guarantees.
 

Another vote for the general "Warlocks = Overpowered" wtf? Oh goodness, their mighty invocations are going to overwhelm their enemies because we all know how infinitely casting a very limited spell-list makes for unstoppable ownage, it's why sorcerers are considered stronger than wizards, right? Oh, and eldritch blasts just rip through people, their damage isn't a joke at all, why use empowered maximized scorching rays when a single ray deals half your level in d6s.

The warlock is your basic rogue type, it can get the party out of some serious hot-beds, does enough damage to cut through fodder, and has enough crowd control tricks to turn the tables when things get hairy. Taking 10 on any Use Magic Device check is the only place where warlock gets scary, but that's only if you as a DM accidentally let the warlock become too rich, otherwise it's just a few trump cards the warlock keeps tucked away.
 

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