"Back to the Dungeon" aiming for the wrong target?

[rounser]

I had a conversation last night with one of my mates who's a rabid Everquest player, and we came to the conclusion that these days, games like Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Everquest etc. do hackfests just plain better than D&D does. That plays on their strengths - combat simulations and looting for treasure and XP.

Meanwhile, WotC releases products (or used to) aimed at the same target, with Diablo books, RttToEE and CotSQ. This, we thought, doesn't play on PnP's strengths, but rather simply shows quite clearly where the CRPG technology is outstripping PnP. We know that PnP can do a campaign with much more depth than any CRPG, and conjectured that the "Back to the Dungeon" ethos in the form of combat after combat with little RP depth whatsoever might be sabotaging D&D's long term success, by emphasising where D&D is weakest rather than strongest.

I remember a comment from a WotC staffer (Dancey?) that just putting the words "Dungeon Crawl" on a series of modules sent their sales up. This sales observation is probably the basis of the policy...is it shortsighted?

 

[jonesy]

I usually try to avoid anything completely dedicated to dungeon crawling as none of the players in our group prefer dungeon adventures.
As for stuff like Diablo and Dungeon Siege, they are pure combat games and great entertainment, but they don't have much to do with the roleplaying aspect.
Combat simulation better on a computer? It might be easier to see the big picture, but mostly it lacks flavor and the story elements. It's just...rollplaying.

 

[Gellion]

I like dungeoncrawls. But i also like Roleplaying.

 

[Gothmog]

I always avoid the "dungeon crawls" like the plague. CotSQ, RttToEE, Banwarrens, etc, do absolutely nothing for me. I did enjoy the original ToEE 15 years ago, but I was in Jr High then.

I think the whole "back to the dungeon" thing is stupid. Combat can be fun under the right circumstances, but too often it becomes "I hit the orc for 8, he misses." Blah. I know a lot of it depends on the DM, but the dungeon crawl adventures are just endless series of combats with almost no roleplaying and occur for no discernable purpose but to gank monsters and loot. There is no thrill or adventure in that- its just a computer simulation like Diablo. IMO, the best adventure avoid dungeons altogether (Splintered Peace by Atlas, Festival of the Damned for Ars Magica, Bloody Sands of Sicaris, etc).

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, it's not called Dungeons & Dragons for nothing. As for me, I don't mind dungeon-crawl as much as the next D&D gamer, but the DM should add more than just the hackfest part, especially when you're no longer a newbie.

And as great as the many CRPGs you mentioned above that, in you opinion, do better than traditional tabletop RPG that is D&D, it can never replace the social "gathering around the table" aspect.

 

[rounser]

A clarification...I know these games aren't a replacement for D&D, and D&D will always have it's dungeons, and that's as it should be. However, I think recent WotC modules have been trying to ape the hack'n'slashery of these computer games whilst ignoring what PnP truly shines at.

I know it's possible to create a dungeon which doesn't revolve around combat after combat, by the way, whereas that seems to be the style which we've seen WotC stressing. Also, I think that the "Back to the Dungeon" approach lacks variety, and fails to show off the possibilities which PnP D&D has up it's sleeve which a computer game can never do better. This is more what I'm getting at.

Of course, this is a moot point; no more modules from WotC for the foreseeable future. Who knows, perhaps this is for the best.

 

[Ranger REG]

You could present your feedback to the staff of Dungeon magazine. Tell them you want more story-based adventures. It's up to them to balance this out with the needs of the dungeon-crawl fans.

You other alternative: take advantage of the SRD, the OGL, and/or the d20STL and post up your successful adventures for everyone in the community to try.

 

[rounser]

Yes RangerREG, I could do all of that, especially if I chose to do that with my spare time instead of attempting to create dance music. You've said DIY, which is a good way of deflecting a suggestion you disagree with.

The topic here, though, is as to whether the policy is slowly becoming misguided. A lot changes in three years in FRP CRPG gaming, and I think the rate of change in PnP gaming is many times slower.

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, not knowing WHAT content will be in the new 3.5e DMG except for the TOC posted on the Wizards' website, "dungeon" will always be a part of D&D, which is always what I refer to as an entry-level RPG. What you do with the rules to make other types of adventures (story-based, mystery, horror) that is up to you, especially if you're already an experienced roleplayer.

They're just tools, nothing more. The rest is in your head.

 

[rounser]

In the case of WotC, it also affects the kind of modules that get released (or, at least, used to), and is even written into the Dungeon magazine submission guidelines (so maybe you have a point about writing the editor).

These modules are also some people's first taste of the game, and if they can compare it directly to a CRPG's hacking and think, "that does hack'n'slash better, why bother with this" then there may be implications for D&D's popularity.