"Back to the Dungeon" aiming for the wrong target?

[Desdichado]

It's a thin line between CRPGs stealing PNP players because they do dungeoncrawls better, and PNP picking up CRPG players because it offers a little more depth and other things that a CRPG cannot.

Certainly, I personally despise dungeon crawls. The "back to the dungeon" approach has nothing to do with the fact that I came back to D&D after about a decade of avoiding it. It's the fact that it's a better game all around, even outside the dungeon, that did that. I expect that's true for a lot of folks.

 

[Staffan]

I've said this before on a few threads, but I'll take this opportunity to say it again: Dragon's Crown for Dark Sun is in many respects my model for a perfect "big adventure" (as opposed to "small adventure that will be done in 2-4 sessions).

The secret to Dragon's Crown's success lies mainly in that it's a series of distinct sub-adventures. Instead of just having one big dungeon to hack through (a la Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil), you have to learn the nature of the threat in one place, investigate the big NPC who is suspected to be the cause of the threat, negotiate with said NPC once you realize he's not to blame, travel to one end of the setting, get past a tribe of giants to get to the ruin you're supposed to go to, travel to the other end of the setting, deal with savage halfling tribes in the jungle, get past armies of mad thri-kreen, and finally have a showdown with the main baddie of the adventure. All in all, I think there are about three proper dungeons in the adventure, with the rest being overland or city stuff.

Another big reason why Dragon's Crown is such a great adventure is that it does a damn good job of using the setting. When you have a distinct setting like Dark Sun, it's a waste to only do dungeoning things - show the setting off! The adventure in question uses savage tribes, city stuff in Urik, travel on the Sea of Silt, halfling cannibals(1) , thri-kreen, tohr-kreen, mighty psionicists, and a glimpse into the mostly unknown history of the world. That's a lot more fun than a big musty dungeon.

1) Technically, the halflings aren't cannibals on account of not eating other halflings. They're happy to gnaw on the occasional elf or human, though.

 

[d12]

Argh! RttToEE is not just one big dungeon to hack through! There's a ton of roleplay potential in the big dungeon, not to mention all the stuff going on in Hommlet.

 

[Melan]

Which modules, in the history of D&D, are the most famous? Which sold the best? That's right - it was the ones with the dungeons. Against the Giants, Ruins of Undermountain, Keep on the Borderlands - all of these had dungeons in them. Dungeons are just plain fun for many of us - sort of like concentrated motherlodes of adventure.

 

[Storminator]

The reason dungeon adventures sell is that any group can play them. Not every group wants to, but you can put a hole in the ground in any world.

In my games I have tons of RPing, and huge adventures that are based purely on that RPing. However, there is no game designer in the world that can sell me one of those adventures. Each and every one is hand crafted for the PCs in my games, matched to the players at the table, and firmly grounded in the intricacies of my homebrew world. That's precisely the touch that makes them great adventures. But those details are out of reach of other designers. And if they weren't, no one else would buy the module; no one else has my players playing my PCs in my world.

But once the players get pulled in with an intro module, they can branch out on their own. Just like so many of us did.

PS

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Threads like this make Flexor go, "Bah!"

Classic Gygax modules had plenty of overland action, then a dungeon that was more than just combat. There were logical puzzles and traps that required cunning and smarts to get past. Put a pure "hack and slasher" in the Tomb of Horrors and watch him die in 43 seconds. Those classic modules gave locations and encounters, it was up to the...gasp...DM to fill in the rest and personalize it to his group. So even the most slashy of adventures had room for plenty of roleplay, just not the railroaded stuff that I've found in most "story heavy modules". You can roleplay in the dugeon quite well, the roleplaying between the Paladin and the party last night while deep in the pit was quite good. Roleplay doesn't have to mean the adventure is centered around the tea party a local princess is throwing, it can be some good dialoge between the group as they try to figure out what to do with the captured assassin they have.
Leave the amature theater to the White Wolf crowd!

And when Diablo or Everquest is totally open, when I can do anything I could do with a human DM is when a CRPG will catch a RPG in dungeoncrawling. But since the PC can only do so much you have very, very limited options in most cases. It's nothing close to sitting at the table with a DM who can adjust to whatever crazed request a player makes.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Threads like this make Flexor go, "Bah!"

Classic Gygax modules had plenty of overland action, then a dungeon that was more than just combat. There were logical puzzles and traps that required cunning and smarts to get past. Put a pure "hack and slasher" in the Tomb of Horrors and watch him die in 43 seconds.

Ah, but you forget that Gygax himself has recounted how Sir Robilar, played by Rob Kuntz, was a pretty straightforward hack 'n' slasher, and actually made it through the Tomb with a minimum of problem solving. He simply sent in his orc minions first, they tripped the traps, and he came in after. Then he ran from the demi-lich. Doesn't sound like a lot of think-tanking to me.

 

[Desdichado]

Classic Gygax modules had plenty of overland action, then a dungeon that was more than just combat. There were logical puzzles and traps that required cunning and smarts to get past. Put a pure "hack and slasher" in the Tomb of Horrors and watch him die in 43 seconds. Those classic modules gave locations and encounters, it was up to the...gasp...DM to fill in the rest and personalize it to his group. So even the most slashy of adventures had room for plenty of roleplay, just not the railroaded stuff that I've found in most "story heavy modules". You can roleplay in the dugeon quite well, the roleplaying between the Paladin and the party last night while deep in the pit was quite good. Roleplay doesn't have to mean the adventure is centered around the tea party a local princess is throwing, it can be some good dialoge between the group as they try to figure out what to do with the captured assassin they have.
Leave the amature theater to the White Wolf crowd!

What, solving traps is roleplaying? Dungeons that have traps in them aren't dungeon crawls? Tome of Horrors wasn't the ultimate expression of the dungeoncrawling experience?

Posts like this make Joshua Dyal say "Bah!" I just said a few posts ago that I don't like dungeoncrawls and avoid them like the plague. Dungeoncrawls don't offer an interesting experience to me, and I hardly need someone to tell me "yes, they do, you just don't realize it." I did not say that dungeon crawls don't allow any roleplaying, or that I'd rather be at the duchess's tea party flirting with Matt's PC or anything along those lines. Dungeon crawls just flat out aren't interesting to me.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Ah, but you forget that Gygax himself has recounted how Sir Robilar, played by Rob Kuntz, was a pretty straightforward hack 'n' slasher, and actually made it through the Tomb with a minimum of problem solving. He simply sent in his orc minions first, they tripped the traps, and he came in after. Then he ran from the demi-lich. Doesn't sound like a lot of think-tanking to me.

Well if you have a lot of disposable minions ready to throw thier lives away to clear out traps and encounters I'm sure any module would become super easy. I would think it would have been a lot more fun to play the orcs than to play Robilar. That's one way around the problems, one that avoids having to use your head. That's like saying, "I'll send my hoarde of orcs in, then I'll walk in and clean up, just gimme the loot sheet". How boring can you get?

 

[Darth Shoju]

Hmm interesting topic. I figure I'll drop my 2 cp in on the whole deal.

I started playing AD&D when I was about 12. Did it off and on for years, but it wasn't until I hit university that I started playing it consistently. Thing was, in those early years of university, I had a lot of friends who were into D&D type-stuff (Magic the Gathering, computer games, comics, etc.), but most of the guys had given up AD&D a year or so before I met them (they were basically all friends of friends before). I pretty much just played AD&D with three of them, while some of the others played Call of Cthulhu and couldn't be talked into playing anything else. Even the friends I did play with tended to heavily modify the rules.

Then 3 ed. hit and all of a sudden pretty much every friend I had was into the game again and we even made some new friends who were getting into D&D for the first time. This is known as the "D&D Renaissance" amongst some of my friends. It was great, and still is the best D&D time of my life.

A year after 3 ed came out, I started playing EQ. I soon discovered why it is called "Evercrack" by many. I was basically coming home from work, shutting myself up in my computer room and playing until I went to bed (often rather late). I was ignoring my roommates, not getting enough sleep and was ignoring my D&D campaign I was supposed to be running. Now, I'm not trying to decry EQ as evil; I actually met a friend on there who I started chatting with through IM programs too. She's still a good friend of mine, even though I've thoroughly given up on EQ. But, as Henry our August Mod pointed out, it has a tendency to emphasise a very detached type of relationship, while not allowing a lot of time to build real-world relationships. This has happed to others in our gaming group, who have snubbed D&D sessions for EQ and other computer games. Really, it's up to the strength of will of the person playing to choose not to spend a lot of time on those games (I am weak, I admit), but the fact you pay for them monthly (and not cheaply either) makes you feel like you have to play a lot to get your money's worth. I'm not saying MMORPGs are evil, but they can be deceptively immersive.

Like I said, I've given up on EQ, and rediscovered how much I enjoy the social component of D&D. There's a reason I call my gaming buddies friends; they're a genuinely cool group of people to be around. Yes, D&D does have more game-related advantages over CRPGs (I've never played a computer game that featured such unlimited potential for enjoyment as D&D), but I think its real advantage is, as Henry said, it's social component.

I'll be playing D&D for the rest of my life, but I doubt I'll get back into EQ. I just love my friends too much to turn my back on them and glue my face to a computer screen again.

(Sorry for the length too, I guess I had a lot to say on this topic...like I said, it's very interesting!)


edited for clarity...and spelling