Backstab and free action timing.

[karolusb]

Playing in encounters the other night, and I make a bad attack roll, and declare backstab to try to turn it into a hit. One of the other guys at the table said that is not how it is supposed to work.

Backstab:
Free Action
Trigger: you make an attack roll (and other conditions not relevant to the example)
Effect: Gain a +3 power bonus to the attack roll and deal 1d6 extra damage if the attack hits.

compare to

Elven accuracy
Free action
trigger you make an attack roll and dislike the result
effect: reroll the attack etc.

So my question is should backstab be declared only before the attack?

My read is that I could use it on a possible miss to try to generate a hit. But I could also declare it after certain hit for assured damage. That might be more powerful than was intended, but I am not picking up anything in the language that indicates otherwise.

 

[edudlive]

The way I understand it you are correct. You must declare your use of backstab before making the attack roll; rather than making the roll and deciding to use it after seeing the result.

 

[jimmifett]

Playing in encounters the other night, and I make a bad attack roll, and declare backstab to try to turn it into a hit. One of the other guys at the table said that is not how it is supposed to work.

Backstab:
Free Action
Trigger: you make an attack roll (and other conditions not relevant to the example)
Effect: Gain a +3 power bonus to the attack roll and deal 1d6 extra damage if the attack hits.

compare to

Elven accuracy
Free action
trigger you make an attack roll and dislike the result
effect: reroll the attack etc.

So my question is should backstab be declared only before the attack?

My read is that I could use it on a possible miss to try to generate a hit. But I could also declare it after certain hit for assured damage. That might be more powerful than was intended, but I am not picking up anything in the language that indicates otherwise.

*puts on evil programmer hat*
As written, the trigger to allow it's use occurs chained to the attack roll event.

if it still does not hit, you blew your encounter and don't get the extra damage.

 

[the Jester]

You must declare that you are using it when you make an attack roll, not when you hit or miss. That means before you know the results of your attack to me.

 

[SabreCat]

Huh, put me down as a dissenting voice to the above. At my table, "I missed? Okay, I kick in Backstab. Will it hit with +3 more?" would be totally legit.

 

[Mengu]

I'd rule the decision can be made after the attack roll, similar to wand of accuracy.

You made an attack roll and rolled a 5. That's the trigger for the free action, you add the bonus, see if you hit.

If you'll notice from a design perspective, the Essentials martial encounter powers are reliable, you never waste them. Considering that perspective, it makes sense that you would be able to choose to add the bonus after you know the roll.

 

[mneme]

You get to use it after you see the result of the attack roll, just like Elven Accuracy.

You'll generally know whether you hit or miss at this point -- but not necessarily what roll you need to hit with.

 

[Festivus]

The trigger is what's important here. It says "You make an attack roll", not "You miss with an attack roll" or "You make an attack roll and do not like the result". My interpretation: you need to declare it before you make that attack roll, and get the bonus +3 to hit and extra 1d6 damage. Otherwise, it's way more powerful than Elven Accuracy in that you get a reroll with a bonus to both the attack roll and damage... nope, not at all like Elven Accuracy.

 

[twilsemail]

Otherwise, it's way more powerful than Elven Accuracy in that you get a reroll with a bonus to both the attack roll and damage... nope, not at all like Elven Accuracy.

Mind if I ask where the re-roll is coming from? I don't see where you're pulling that from.

As it's written it's far more like a better version of the new Human Racial.

 

[jimmifett]

The trigger is what's important here. It says "You make an attack roll", not "You miss with an attack roll" or "You make an attack roll and do not like the result". My interpretation: you need to declare it before you make that attack roll, and get the bonus +3 to hit and extra 1d6 damage. Otherwise, it's way more powerful than Elven Accuracy in that you get a reroll with a bonus to both the attack roll and damage... nope, not at all like Elven Accuracy.

The trigger is exactly as stated. "You make an attack roll.", not before you make an attack roll, when an attack is declared, someone else grants you an attack, or anything else. You need to have made an attack roll to trigger it.

Now, it is my belief that the player needs to decide whether or not to use it BEFORE the DM states if it misses or not, but that would be up to the circumstance, like if the DM is a bit jumpy on declaring "you missed" based on say, a 2 on the die before the player can add modifiers. I would also apply the same to elven accuracy, since it says "you make an attack roll and dislike the result". This would also occur after the roll, but before the DM tells you if you've missed or not. Now, a lot of tables take this for granted and simply use elven accuracy on a miss, but that is not how the power is worded to work.

If the DM has already stated that you miss, after you've totalled up your bonuses to the die roll and informed him/her of the final attack roll total, I would definately say it's too late to use it by that point.

Player: (rolls 12 on die + 8 to hit.. looks at die, thinks he may need a bit more) "I use backstab while I attempt to twist my blade into the monster's spleen, my total is 23 vs AC., xx stabbity stab damage"

DM: "You just barely slip past the overlapping scales on the monster and plunge your weapon deep inside the abdomen of your target. The monster turns to cut you with it's gaze, filled with the fury of the nine hells in it's eyes, as it roars spittle and blood at you."