[BADD] A clinic for DMing Dragons- long

[Numion]

If there are mages who can bulk up their DC's to ridiculous heights, you'd hope there would be an alternate approach for dragons to decrease their vulnerabilities to said strategy.

* Spell Turning
* Counterspells
* Spell Immunity
* Spell Resistance

Those would be some specific tactics. If it is the Polymorph Other you're scared of, have the dragon cast polymorph self on himself. That way he can change back to his original for at will. Or just use spell immunity. Spell Turning is also very useful for those high-dc insta kills.

Additional Dragon tactics:

Use the fifth dimension: The dragon should block the use of the Ethereal Plane to get to his lair. MotP had something on this.

Be prepared to leave. Keep most of your treasure somewhere hidden, and leave only a fraction as the apparent hoard. If you escape, you can still retrieve your treasure.

 

[Hand of Evil]

how dragons protect themsleves

Also if the dragon has spells from the cleric domains they could have Glyph of Warding placing them about their lair.

 

[Gargoyle]

Just to throw a wrinkle in here:

What would you dragon-masters DO to protect a dragon against the insane kind of magics that PC's can wield in 3E?

For example, it is a fairly common tactic for mages to specialize in a school, and then acquire Spell Focus in said school, then Greater Spell Focus.
Add in stat-bumping spells that are TERRIBLE easy to get and use, and you've got a pretty darned high DC there for any of their insta-kill spells.
(this is all borne out in many threads, ,os noteably the black dragon wiped out with one Polymorph.)

So I guess the only way to stop insta-kills is to NOT have the mage cast?
That's kind of limiting (biols down to who can pull their gun out first and fire).

If there are mages who can bulk up their DC's to ridiculous heights, you'd hope there would be an alternate approach for dragons to decrease their vulnerabilities to said strategy.

Well, slightly OT, but I don't allow Greater Spell Focus IMC. It's a boring feat and causes the problem you describe in many types of encounters.

Aside from that, I think the best way to handle it is to simply increase the size of the dragon encountered. One big disadvantage dragons usually have is that they are almost always outnumbered. A flesh to stone or harm spell is quite useless against a horde of goblins. At best, you might take out one of their leaders. You're better off with a fireball or lightning bolt. But against a dragon, such a spell can be quite useful if your DC is high and you get somewhat lucky.

Giving them items and spells that increase their saving throws is a start, but I really think the ideal solution is to just make the dragon larger with a higher CR (and correspondingly higher saves and SR). If the party is packing spells that aren't as effective against the dragon, you may want to lower the size of the dragon and CR. I'm a big fan of the CR/EL system, but it really needs constant evaluation. You have to look at the capabilities of the individual party versus the capabilities of the individual threat.

 

[Plecak]

Hello,

Originally posted by Gargoyle:

"Probably people think of hydras when you talk about multi-headed dragons. How much would the CR increase on a multiple-headed dragon? Would it be a different race altogether, or just a template? (A formally written template for this would be cool.)

Multiple dragons are something a party doesn't expect either. Imagine their fear when they are about to finish one off when its mate flys in."


Well, I have been thinking about multi-headed dragons not about hydras. These two are different species.

I consider a multi-headed dragon to be a template that could be applied to any dragon of any existing race. Imagine, for example, a two-headed blue old or a four-headed gold wyrm.

I think, I could prepare an appropriate template (I have got an idea of it in my mind), but am not sure how to scale CRs with each additional head.

What do you think about it ?

 

[Wolfspider]

Multi-Headed dragons

Well, let's see what the effects of having several heads would have on a dragon.

Of course, it would have multiple bite attacks. That would make it more dangerous in itself.

As far as breath weapons go, I think I would give the dragon the same amount of breath weapon usage as it would normally have. After all, it just has more barrels, so to speak, not more bullets (since I imagine the dragon's "furnace" or the source of its breath weapon to be in its main body).

I would think that the dragon might have trouble using its front claw attacks because of its extra head (kind of like how Tiamate was portrakyed in the old D&D cartoon). But this doesn't have to be the way it works, if you don't agree with my vision.

What about spell use? Would it be able to use its natural magical abilities or spell use more often in a round? How could we handle that? I imagine the dragon would also get a bonus to Will saves because of its multiple brains (and maybe a bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma in general).

So, basically, extra attacks. Nasty attacks. Mayb extra magical use and stat increases. Not too imbalancing. +1 CR per extra head? +2 if we decide to give it a lot of the extras I mentioned? I dunno--I'm not an expert on CR....

 

[Gargoyle]

I think, I could prepare an appropriate template (I have got an idea of it in my mind), but am not sure how to scale CRs with each additional head.

What do you think about it ?

Why don't we both take a stab at it, (and anyone else who feels like doing so) then compare what we get? It will take me a few days, though, probably won't get a chance to even start working on it till Thursday...

 

[Gargoyle]

Re: Multi-Headed dragons

Well, let's see what the effects of having several heads would have on a dragon.

Of course, it would have multiple bite attacks. That would make it more dangerous in itself.

As far as breath weapons go, I think I would give the dragon the same amount of breath weapon usage as it would normally have. After all, it just has more barrels, so to speak, not more bullets (since I imagine the dragon's "furnace" or the source of its breath weapon to be in its main body).

I would think that the dragon might have trouble using its front claw attacks because of its extra head (kind of like how Tiamate was portrakyed in the old D&D cartoon). But this doesn't have to be the way it works, if you don't agree with my vision.

What about spell use? Would it be able to use its natural magical abilities or spell use more often in a round? How could we handle that? I imagine the dragon would also get a bonus to Will saves because of its multiple brains (and maybe a bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma in general).

So, basically, extra attacks. Nasty attacks. Mayb extra magical use and stat increases. Not too imbalancing. +1 CR per extra head? +2 if we decide to give it a lot of the extras I mentioned? I dunno--I'm not an expert on CR....

Sounds like a good start...I'm no expert on CRs either, but I think I can whip up something that works. I'll try to start working on it this week...like I said above, it may be Thursday though. (Gotta go run a game today, and I've got a lot of work to do Monday - Wednesday...)

All this 2-headed dragon stuff is OT though, I've created a new thread in house rules...

 

[reapersaurus]

My problem is that the younger dragons (<=young adult) are often portrayed as arrogant. Why? They're not yet the be-all and end-all monsters, they're just getting there. Once thyey're been on their own for a few decades, they'll get arrogant enough...
.

Leave it to you to pick up my set-shot and spike it down, CR. Great job.

Actually, what you said is even MORE essential to the way that many DM's are neutering their dragons.

See... a dragon has to be POWERFUL to be arrogant.
They have to be bigger and badder than almost EVERY single thing they may come up against, otherwise their arrogance in the face of a power that can kill them borders on delusional.

It NEVER has said that dragons are delusional.

Too many DM's, it seems, play dragons as arrogant just to be arrogant. (and secondarily, to give their PC's a fighting chance against dragons)
Why?
Any intelligent creature would treat an unknown threat as a danger, and prepare accordingly. It's not like dragons get to fight every day - they'd be prepping against an unknown foe just as much as against a known powerful foe.

It's when they are distinctly more powerful than the enemy is when their arrogance would come to the fore and possibly be a barrier.

To make a dragon walk around in life believing that he de-facto is stronger than every unknown group that's attacking him is not arrogance, but hubris (bordering on suicidal).

Put it this way: Most PC's I've seen could be described as "overconfident."
would you REQUIRE your players to make their PC's be dumb, and not prepare against the 16 cloaked figures that are stalking them?

 

[James McMurray]

Reapersaurus:

See... a dragon has to be POWERFUL to be arrogant.

I disagree. I've known quite a few people who couldn't beat me in a battle (either wits or physical) that are still arrogant. In fact, some people use arrogance to cover their own short-comings, in an attempt to bluff their way through life.

 

[Draco Argentum]

Well, most of these discusions are aimed at or based on the assumption of an evil dragon. Don't forget the evil adventurers after the good dragons. We're not disposable either you know.