Wolfspider
Explorer
Yes! Excellent observation. I think that modification of stats can give DMs a lot of room to make their dragons truly B.A.D.D.
(Sorry...I just got up and I haven't had my coffee yet.
)
BADD- evaluate my dragon DM'ing? (KotSQ, Glacier Season module SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Dr Midnight
- Start date
Yes! Excellent observation. I think that modification of stats can give DMs a lot of room to make their dragons truly B.A.D.D.
(Sorry...I just got up and I haven't had my coffee yet.
)
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Also, don't forget the dragons frightful presence - at his age and size it is, what, a DC35 Will ST or be shaken for 4d6 rounds.
That is a lot of time to be receiving the penalty for being shaken (and a good reason for someone to have prepared "remove fear". Looks like a much better spell now, eh?)
That is a lot of time to be receiving the penalty for being shaken (and a good reason for someone to have prepared "remove fear". Looks like a much better spell now, eh?)
kengar
First Post
Time for a little method DM-ing:
I'm a big, old, POWERFUL dragon; and even if the White is one of the less huge and intelligent dragons, it's still no dummy. These twerps came into my cave and attacked me and threatened my hoard. I am TICKED! I would heal up, take steps to protect my lair and hoard in my absence (even collapsing the cave around the hoard while I was gone and digging it out later). I would look at everything they did during the battle, each weapon's effect, each spell, etc. then try to think of a counter for it. I would do my best to find out where they were and hit them while they were not expecting it (possibly polymorphing into another form to get close).
Another thought just occured to me, if the dragon could possibly learn that there was a lich involved (by later scrying, etc.) I might even go after his Phylactery if I could find out where he hid it
I'm a big, old, POWERFUL dragon; and even if the White is one of the less huge and intelligent dragons, it's still no dummy. These twerps came into my cave and attacked me and threatened my hoard. I am TICKED! I would heal up, take steps to protect my lair and hoard in my absence (even collapsing the cave around the hoard while I was gone and digging it out later). I would look at everything they did during the battle, each weapon's effect, each spell, etc. then try to think of a counter for it. I would do my best to find out where they were and hit them while they were not expecting it (possibly polymorphing into another form to get close).
Another thought just occured to me, if the dragon could possibly learn that there was a lich involved (by later scrying, etc.) I might even go after his Phylactery if I could find out where he hid it
BLACKDIRGE
Adventurer
I don't get it. A group of 4 11th to 12th level characters managed to drive off a great wyrm dragon in its lair. And if they just teleported in they should have been subject to the minions that were still in Coldheart. What about Helios he should have come to the dragon's aid not to mention the dozens of Ice golems running around.
With power attack and the buff spells that Acessiwal "should" have had on him he should have been slaying a character a round. You must have some very tough PC's.
I manged to kill a 9th level party of six twice with a young adult green dragon in RTTTOEE.
I read Glacier season last night and I just dont see how 4 11th level characters would even have a chance. It is a very tough module.
Dirge
With power attack and the buff spells that Acessiwal "should" have had on him he should have been slaying a character a round. You must have some very tough PC's.
I manged to kill a 9th level party of six twice with a young adult green dragon in RTTTOEE.
I read Glacier season last night and I just dont see how 4 11th level characters would even have a chance. It is a very tough module.
Dirge
BLACKDIRGE said:
You should go read the post. The PC's didn't come close to "driving off the great wyrm." In fact, they annoyed it a little bit, one of them died, and they turned their yellow bellies and fled.
Anyway, I wanted to give some more advice on running the dragon.
1.) The dragon can use Fog Cloud three times per day. With its Blindsight, this means the PC's will have a 20% miss chance, while the dragon suffers no penalty. Fog Cloud can also be used to prevent scrying.
2.) It's crucial that you remember the dragon's fear aura. This is one of the most powerful abilities of any dragon - a Will save with a DC of 32 is nothing to sneeze at, even for 20th level characters.
3.) If the dragon gets a chance, it will certainly try to use its Crush ability. The DC to avoid it is 36, and it deals 4d6+19 points of damage each round the dragon chooses to maintain it. The dragon will have a grapple check of +61, so it will be pretty much impossible to escape.
4.) The issue of scrying and teleporting is a thorny one. The spells Dimensional Lock and Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (both from Tome and Blood) provide some defense against these all-too-common tactics. I don't think it unreasonable for the dragon to commission a mage to create Permanenced Locks and Sanctums to protect its lair.
5.) If the dragon attacks the PC's outdoors, it may well be advised to use its ability to Control Weather. A blizzard will hinder the PC's abilities to see the dragon and mount and effective defense, while it will have only a negligable effect on the dragon. A blizzard with severe winds will have the following effects on the PC's:
a.) Medium sized (or Large flying) - Fortitude save DC 15 or unable to advance into wind (blown back 1d6x5 for flying creatures)
b.) Small sized (or Medium flying) - Fortitude DC 15 or knocked down (blown back 1d6x10 for flying creatures)
c.) ranged weapon attacks impossible
d.) visibility reduced to zero
e.) Characters must make Fortitude saves every 10 minutes or suffer 1d6 points of subdual damage from cold exposure (DC begins at 15, check every hour if wearing winter clothing).
In these conditions, it would be quite easy for the dragon to snatch up a couple of the PC's and make off with them as trophies for its lair.
Of course, the PC's could just teleport away when the blizzard begins forming (possibly allow Wilderness Lore check to determine if the brewing storm is natural or supernatural), but considering where they are, they may not suspect anything out of the ordinary.
Anyway, winter is the dragon's most powerful ally. Don't underestimate the weather!
reapersaurus
Explorer
This is what I was getting at when i suggested to Doc to just tell his PC's "Nope. The teleport doesn't work."Schmoe said:
Many people are loathe to allow for an ancient Wyrm to have protected himself and especially his HOME with magic.
Why?
Because it's not in the description of the dragons in the MM?
Let's be a little creative here, and realistic.
This Wyrm is one of the most powerful beings on the planet, and it can't stop a crummy teleport spell from allowing any old enemy in and getting the drop on him in the middle of his home?!
Who cares if it's expensive and clunky to create by the rules?
Don't let the rules as printed be a straitjacket.
Be creative, be fair, and allow for a OLD dragon to have figured out a few tricks in his loooong years.
when you think about it, unless you allow a dragon to have a lair that is impervious to scrying and teleporting, than how could it ever really get any rest?
It would have to constantly be on guard if any old PC could just teleport in and attack it any second.
jollyninja
First Post
ok, i'm not a badd member but if your pc's are just teleporting into the lair of a great wyrm dragon, they deserve death. there is no action more worthy of tpk then taking dragons lightly. your players need to learn prudence. now I realise that it might be hard to tell just how big a dragon is using a scry within it's own lair but that is why you shouldn't teleport to the dragon. if they are all chaotic, stupid, and fearless, they have played their characters well all the way to their deaths.
that said, there is no reason that the dragon has to do it right away. give him a magical item to deal with the scrying if you want to continue the campaign. and have him pop up for vengance through the use of underlings until the party has an outside shot at living through the final showdown. also remember not to limit yourself to your preplanned contingencies, if a player comes up with something, and you have no way to counter his action planned but you can think of one, the dragon is probably smarter then you are and even if you can't come up with an explaination that the players will swallow, you do not have to, it's a dragon that has survived for a millenia or two, your pc's have not seen the combat time that the dragon has or prepared for the battle as well as the dragon. in short, they should not ever know what to expect when entering a dragon's lair and if they come out confused, that's perfect.
that said, there is no reason that the dragon has to do it right away. give him a magical item to deal with the scrying if you want to continue the campaign. and have him pop up for vengance through the use of underlings until the party has an outside shot at living through the final showdown. also remember not to limit yourself to your preplanned contingencies, if a player comes up with something, and you have no way to counter his action planned but you can think of one, the dragon is probably smarter then you are and even if you can't come up with an explaination that the players will swallow, you do not have to, it's a dragon that has survived for a millenia or two, your pc's have not seen the combat time that the dragon has or prepared for the battle as well as the dragon. in short, they should not ever know what to expect when entering a dragon's lair and if they come out confused, that's perfect.
Craziness...
Hi Doc. I'm a long time lurker, turned postee in light of this sudden turn of events. I've read your story for quite some time, and I would never have expected such a bold move from your party. I'm sorry to say that I am a bit disappointed with your frustration. I think that everyone is going a little overboard.
I say if a party wants to do something crazy, like attack a giant, ancient Wyrm, then let them. It's all part of the role-playing, high fantasy experience. I think you're taking yourself, your players, and the game too seriously. To quote the DeadAleWives, "It's a game of the imagination." Let them have their fun. Of course, you should not have pulled any punches while they were fighting the dragon. Why did it only kill one member? If it was tough enough to brush off a harm spell, you think it could have annihilated the whole party. Where were the minions and sidekicks? Another question that comes tomind is how high level is this module? You said your players are 11th level, and to have a big bad Wyrm at the end sounds like a module that is too tough for the characters at this point anyhow. It may have been silly or poor judgement for the characters to attack the end bad guy right away, but did you ever think maybe it was poor judgement on your part for putting them in a module with one? These are things a DM has to think of since there is no telling what his players are going to do.
I think it would be interesting for the dragon to want a rematch, but I say don't bother taking away magical items or loved ones. Never works. Chances are this is going to hurt your campaign more than anything. If you ruin their characters, you're only going to bring an end to your epic campaign. I say send the dragon after them in a fair fight. They dropped in on it, so have it drop in on them. Let whoever dies, die, and let that be it. Afterall, it is a game. When the game gets taken too seriously, people stop having fun, which is the whole point of playing in the first place.
Hi Doc. I'm a long time lurker, turned postee in light of this sudden turn of events. I've read your story for quite some time, and I would never have expected such a bold move from your party. I'm sorry to say that I am a bit disappointed with your frustration. I think that everyone is going a little overboard.
I say if a party wants to do something crazy, like attack a giant, ancient Wyrm, then let them. It's all part of the role-playing, high fantasy experience. I think you're taking yourself, your players, and the game too seriously. To quote the DeadAleWives, "It's a game of the imagination." Let them have their fun. Of course, you should not have pulled any punches while they were fighting the dragon. Why did it only kill one member? If it was tough enough to brush off a harm spell, you think it could have annihilated the whole party. Where were the minions and sidekicks? Another question that comes tomind is how high level is this module? You said your players are 11th level, and to have a big bad Wyrm at the end sounds like a module that is too tough for the characters at this point anyhow. It may have been silly or poor judgement for the characters to attack the end bad guy right away, but did you ever think maybe it was poor judgement on your part for putting them in a module with one? These are things a DM has to think of since there is no telling what his players are going to do.
I think it would be interesting for the dragon to want a rematch, but I say don't bother taking away magical items or loved ones. Never works. Chances are this is going to hurt your campaign more than anything. If you ruin their characters, you're only going to bring an end to your epic campaign. I say send the dragon after them in a fair fight. They dropped in on it, so have it drop in on them. Let whoever dies, die, and let that be it. Afterall, it is a game. When the game gets taken too seriously, people stop having fun, which is the whole point of playing in the first place.
