BADD- evaluate my dragon DM'ing? (KotSQ, Glacier Season module SPOILERS)

[Wolfspider]

It would have been much smarter for the PCs if they had fought through all the dragon's minions before confronting it, right ?

No, the characters did a very daring and intelligent thing by going right to the dragon. In character, it was the right thing to do That still doesn't mean that it was the right thing for them to do in a metagaming sense.

There is an in-game reason to go through an adventure in sequence. You get the experience and magical items and knowledge you need to overcome the big baddie at the end of the adventure. Often adventures are designed linearly so that characters can claim these things (dragonslaying swords, command words, monster weaknesses) before having the climactic encounter.

There are also the feelings of the DM to consider. He's supposed to have fun, too, right? Well, it's hardly fun for the DM to have all of his preparation and hard work go to nothing and for the DM to have to run an encounter he hadn't thought the characters would reach on the fly.

You have to balance the freedom of the players to determine their own fates with the needs of DM to provide a challenging adventure.

 

[Conaill]

Re: Craziness...

I say if a party wants to do something crazy, like attack a giant, ancient Wyrm, then let them. It's all part of the role-playing, high fantasy experience.

In retrospect, I think this may have been an example of the players displaying less Wisdom than their PC's are supposed to have.

In a case like that it think it's fair to take the one or two characters with the highest Wisdom score aside and tell them "Look, it's an Ancient White Wyrm. The party is hugely outmatched, you're all going to DIE if you attack him head-on, and your characters are wise enough to know that!" Then let them do whatever they want to.

 

[Goldy]

Re: Re: Craziness...

In retrospect, I think this may have been an example of the players displaying less Wisdom than their PC's are supposed to have.

In a case like that it think it's fair to take the one or two characters with the highest Wisdom score aside and tell them "Look, it's an Ancient White Wyrm. The party is hugely outmatched, you're all going to DIE if you attack him head-on, and your characters are wise enough to know that!" Then let them do whatever they want to.

Well, maybe the DM should have made a point of doing that.
At any rate, my point is that Doc has a good story and game going, so why ruin it by having a Dragon ruin his PCs? Even a TPK would be better than destroying his campaign. I've seen it happen. It's happened to me, and it sucks. So, I'm just trying to give some advice.

Besides that, it sounds like Doc's ego is matching the characters. Next thing you know, the DM will be spouting "Every potion you find...I MIXED IT!" C'mon...it's a game. Have fun.

 

[Wolfspider]

Even a TPK would be better than destroying his campaign.

If the party has no fear of any foe that they meet or doesn't see anything as a challenge because the DM is too afraid of killing them, then the campaign will die anyway. It'll be a slow death, but it will still die.

 

[Goldy]

There are also the feelings of the DM to consider. He's supposed to have fun, too, right? Well, it's hardly fun for the DM to have all of his preparation and hard work go to nothing and for the DM to have to run an encounter he hadn't thought the characters would reach on the fly.

But the DM should be prepared for anything, and it sounds like he wasn't. He should have given them some in-game reason why it didn't work if they were really bent on doing it.

As far as feelings go, there is a great article at wizards.com right now (for dragon mag i think...) that talks about DMing and gaming tips. Doc said in the begining of this thread that he doesn't want his players reading this, but he should be talking to his players about his frustrations and thoughts instead of complaining about them. I agree with what someone posted eariler that it's not very productive to rag on the players. I'm not trying to rag on the DM either, but it can't all be one-sided here. I've been in the situations with my players before, so I know.

Listen, I'm a fan. I've been reading for quite sometime. I'm just as big a fan of Doc's as I am his players, and it just seems that his PC's are getting a bad rep for doing what they think they're characters would have done, and for having fun. I've just been in campaigns where things got too serious between the players or the DM and it killed the whole thing. I'd just hate to see a good thing destroyed.

 

[HeavyG]

No, the characters did a very daring and intelligent thing by going right to the dragon. In character, it was the right thing to do That still doesn't mean that it was the right thing for them to do in a metagaming sense.

I feel the players did nothing wrong, so all the cries of 'How DARE they even think of attacking a dragon ? Kill them all !' on this thread are way out of line. The DM made it obvious that the goal of the adventure was to slay that particular dragon so you can't exactly blame them for trying their best to do so.

Sure, they could have said 'Screw this. I'm not attacking a dragon.' and gone home, which I feel most of the posters here would have really liked to happen, but it's not much fun for the people concerned.

I think this situation is mostly the DM's fault, here, and so I wouldn't punish the players for his mistake.

If he wanted the players to metagame the way you (Wolfspider) seem to suggest, he should have point blank told them, out of character and before the game, 'Guys, you won't able to take that dragon on without levelling up first so I suggest for go through all of the adventure, okay ?'

Or, he could have simply had the teleport fail for mysterious reasons.

Now, sure, logically, the dragon would probably go after them. After all, it has demonstrated the ability to scry, so it can find them. If it has teleport, logically, the PCs are screwed. If it doesn't, well, it can probably not find them unless they happen to be somewhere it knows (i.e. near it's lair).

Either way, it's clear that the dragon will do something. At the very least, it will arrange so it's lair is no longer accessible via teleportation and will put its minions on alert for a possible attack.

I'm all for retaliation, but most of the suggestions in this thread go way too far. They may be realistic, but hardly fun, or fair, for the players.

 

[Goldy]

If the party has no fear of any foe that they meet or doesn't see anything as a challenge because the DM is too afraid of killing them, then the campaign will die anyway. It'll be a slow death, but it will still die.

That is why I asked about whether or not he pulled punches in the battle. It sounds like the Dragon coulda killed the whole group...why didn't he? He shoulda put some fear into them then, not attack them while they're sleeping. That's just as silly as them going to attack the dragon in the first place.

 

[Goldy]

Exactly!

I feel the players did nothing wrong, so all the cries of 'How DARE they even think of attacking a dragon ? Kill them all !' on this thread are way out of line. The DM made it obvious that the goal of the adventure was to slay that particular dragon so you can't exactly blame them for trying their best to do so...

I'm all for retaliation, but most of the suggestions in this thread go way too far. They may be realistic, but hardly fun, or fair, for the players.

Here, Here!
I'm glad someone's come to their senses and have agreed with me.

 

[Wolfspider]

I'm all for retaliation, but most of the suggestions in this thread go way too far. They may be realistic, but hardly fun, or fair, for the players.

Well, not feeling any fear for your character's life or being able to overcome every obstacle easily isn't fun either. It's all about balancing fun with a sense of true accomplishment.

Considering that life-giving magics are common in the default D&D world, I would rather err on the side of providing a truly dangerous encounter than a ho-hum one.

 

[Dr Midnight]

"Look, it's an Ancient White Wyrm. The party is hugely outmatched, you're all going to DIE if you attack him head-on, and your characters are wise enough to know that!" Then let them do whatever they want to.

Well, maybe the DM should have made a point of doing that.

I did.

I say if a party wants to do something crazy, like attack a giant, ancient Wyrm, then let them.

I did... I just tried to talk them out of it first.

Of course, you should not have pulled any punches while they were fighting the dragon. Why did it only kill one member?

Because that's as many as it killed before they escaped

Besides that, it sounds like Doc's ego is matching the characters.

...confused, hurt look...

Man, the crap I keep hearing from the players (more like player- singular) about my restrictions on the Harm spell. Ugh.