Bag of tricks bag of trick bag of tricks yesss.

[MarkB]

Can the creature act as soon as it is summoned?

Once it's there, it can act whenever you spend a minor action to direct it. So for instance, if you used a standard action at the start of your turn to summon it, you could then direct it to take a standard action by using your minor action, then convert your move action into a minor action to direct it to take a move or minor action.

 

[Gailbraithe]

Not that I'm trying to convince you to play 4E (everyone has to make their own choices about what defines fun), and I may be missing part of your point, but doesn't it say the summoned creature lasts for an encounter or 5 minutes? I took it that the 5 minute duration definitely meant the option for non-combat use existed. Given that, my opinion of this 4E bag is that it is just as useful, does not negate creative non-combat use, and has added combat-specific clarifications.

Maybe? I don't know. I didn't notice anything about that.

Though you've just hit on another thing about 4E I don't like: "per encounter powers." In my 3.5 campaigns, the introduction of encounter-based powers -- most notably the Inspiration Points of the Factotum -- have lead to so many pointless headaches and quibbling over what qualifies as an encounter that the full embrace of "per encounter" powers is one of the many, many things that keeps me from playing 4E.

What kind of rules could they write to make you use it creatively? Wouldn't that be better left for the player to ... create?

"...anyone reaching into the bag feels a small, fuzzy ball. If the ball is removed and tossed up to 20 feet away, it turns into an animal. The animal serves the character who drew it from the bag for 10 minutes (or until slain or ordered back into the bag), at which point it disappears. It can follow any of the commands described in the Handle Animal skill."

 

[Caliber]

"...anyone reaching into the bag feels a small, fuzzy ball. If the ball is removed and tossed up to 20 feet away, it turns into an animal. The animal serves the character who drew it from the bag for 10 minutes (or until slain or ordered back into the bag), at which point it disappears. It can follow any of the commands described in the Handle Animal skill."

Right, and in this version you can summon the critter 25 feet away, it lasts for 5 minutes, and you have total control (so it can do anything you can think of, within its capabilities). I guess I just don't see the lack of non-combat utility.

 

[Roxolan]

In my 3.5 campaigns, the introduction of encounter-based powers -- most notably the Inspiration Points of the Factotum -- have lead to so many pointless headaches and quibbling over what qualifies as an encounter that the full embrace of "per encounter" powers is one of the many, many things that keeps me from playing 4E.

Well, in 4E, there is actually a good definition of "encounter" - what begins it and what ends it. I've yet to hear people having the kind of problem you describe in 4E.

And I also believe that, as written, the animal from the 4E bag can be used to do as much out-of-combat stuff as the animal from the 3.X bag.

 

[doctorhook]

...

Like this gray bag of tricks is, in my opinion, really really stupid. I mena c'mon, at 8th level you're going to throw a cat at someone?

Really?

In 4E, an 8th-level magic item will appear as standard treasure for a party between levels 5 through 7. By 8th-level, characters will be able to make their own 8th-level magic items, and possibly buy them with relative ease (depending upon the campaign). By 8th-level, characters will also have begun acquiring magic items of up to 11th-level in power.

A minor point, to be sure, but it's important to me that the facts are straight.

 

[GnomeWorks]

(so it can do anything you can think of, within its capabilities).

Which is... what, exactly?

The 3.5 version gives you an idea of where to start. Can a given critter do things beyond that? Possibly; depends on the critter. The skill, however, gives you at least an idea of what the critter can do, without sitting for five minutes contemplating what, exactly, a scorpion is capable of.

 

[Caliber]

Which is... what, exactly?

The 3.5 version gives you an idea of where to start. Can a given critter do things beyond that? Possibly; depends on the critter. The skill, however, gives you at least an idea of what the critter can do, without sitting for five minutes contemplating what, exactly, a scorpion is capable of.

Because the animal is under your direct mental command, it doesn't matter what the animal itself is capable of understanding/being trained to do. You think it, and it does it. Looking at the Handle Animal skill from d20srd.org, I'm not sure what use is outlined there that isn't completely obvious. Heel? Come? You control the animal's movement. Attack? The same.

Fetch? I dunno. What does Handle Animal suggest to you that you wouldn't think of doing since you have complete control?

 

[Ginnel]

It's even there in the description: "This simple, leather bag produces feral critters that you can send against your enemies." (emphasis added)

I can emphasise too

"This simple, leather bag produces feral critters that you can send against your enemies" (emphasis added)

can does not equal must, which must mean that you can use it in situations other than sending the animals against your enemies.

And I really really don't think using animals as a cheap way to get around traps is a clever and inventive thing to do.

 

[jensun]

And I really really don't think using animals as a cheap way to get around traps is a clever and inventive thing to do.

How callous can you be!

Dont you understand the sacrifice that thousand of celestial badgers have made in service to the idea of trap detection...

 

[Gailbraithe]

Wow.

You know what? I'm sorry I offered my opinion.

Watching some of you fall over yourself to defend it is just sad.

Like Gimmel, you're right, you can emphasize just the "can." And you're even right that you can use the bag of tricks for something other than combat.

But you have COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT. The point being that in previous editions the gray bag of tricks was not a combat item, and now it is. Sure, it can be used for non-combat purposes -- so can a sword! -- but the rules as written and the description given, lead one to view the 4e gray bag of tricks as a combat item first and foremost.

The point being that an item that would cause uncreative and unintelligent players to piss and moan and complain that the DM never gives good treasure (and in my twenty years of gaming, I've seen that MANY times), has been changed to make that player -- the worst sort of player -- happy. And that is part of broader trend in 4E to make everything rock simple and plainly obvious, so that the dull-witted players don't have to worry about their brains overheating figuring out what to do with it.

But in making that point, you have become sufficiently pedantic and obnoxious that you made it onto my ignore list, and have caused me to walk away from this thread with a low opinion of the intelligence and intellectual capacities of those who have jumped onto the 4E "stupid is better!" bandwagon.

Seriously, the arguments being presented in this thread are sad.

Throwing a tomcat at someone as an effective combat manuever? That's idiotic. A tomcat, even a big mean tomcat -- and I should know, my parents have a 28 pound Maine Coon tom with a temper -- would be completely ineffective against an armed man with any sort of armor. Even without armor, the scratches would be so insignificant as to be a joke. The idea that a tomcat could TRIP a grown man in combat is equally ridiculous. it's like someone took a joke about cats (how they're always underfoot) and applied it to combat, while ignoring the fact that in the heat of combat a person is a lot more likely to simply crush the cat underfoot, boot it away, and is likely moving quickly enough that the cat's woulkd end up with a lot of broken ribs if it got in that humanoid's way.

That's just dumb.

This is why I hate edition wars so much. People just leave common sense at the door is a desperate attempt to defend dumb things.