"Bait Monsters" and the "Trained Mindset"

[Lonely Tylenol]

I do hope they leave out some iconic monsters, simply so they can make them suckers good.

Example: Mind Flayer. I don't want the Mind Flayer coming out until the Psionic rules are out. Granted, since monsters won't just get slapped 'spell like ability' and whatnot, this might be less necessary, but I want the MF to jive with psionics in any fashionable way, rather than have to shuffle back and forth.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, I seem to remember mind flayers being one of the creatures that a developer mentioned he had been working on in one of the blogs. I don't suppose they'd be working on them yet if they were planned for next year's Monster Manual. :\

I've also discovered the marvels of just taking Stats for monster X and slapping appearance of mosnter Y on it. For instance, in my upcoming session, I intend to drop a poison attack on the Owlbear and call it 'Yaun-ti Abomination Junior', as Yaun-ti Abominations are too powerful for what I need.

Indeed, this seems to be built into the rules of 4E a lot more. Standardized "brute" statblocks with templates and powers stuck on could make owlbears, yuan-ti, giants, morlocks, CHUDs, rancors, animated pianos, or whatever you need at the moment. I like that design direction.

The only thing gone in the MM that would make me mad is Kobolds. Because by god, I love kobolds, and they better not be gone.

They better not be gone, and they had better have the rules for PC kobolds.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Leaving out Frost Giants, just to emphasize that "all the books are core" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If anything, I'd prefer they kept the Norse Giants (Hill, Frost, Fire, and either Cloud/Storm) and kept the rest for other books.

It's not like it's a huge issue anyways, though -- every core monster WotC leaves out of the MM will get picked up by Necromancer for Tome of Horrors 4e, especially uncopyrightable monsters like frost giants.

The other thing is that I'm really not sure it'll expand the average DM's perception of what's core and what isn't core -- some people buy additional books, and some don't, and when someone realizes that their favorite monster(that was in every MM1 before) was left out, they probably going to just get pissed off as opposed to wanting to buy another book. Yay for human psychology, right?

I mean, if a monster has been in every single Monster Manual 1 since the game's inception...it' probably should stay in MM1. Just makes sense.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I remember people were mad the Mycomid wasn't in the 3e MM.

Because MUSHROOM PEOPLE. Seriously! Mushroom people!

You're tooling through the underdark. You kill some drow, a few duergar, a svirfneblin or three, and after you finish butchering an aboleth you round the corner and MUSHROOM PEOPLE! And they make psychedelic spores and you start to turn into mushrooms and they're weirdly cute and also weirdly dangerous and they're Mushroom People.

What's not to love?

Fortunately, they made the cut for MMII.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Leaving out Frost Giants, just to emphasize that "all the books are core" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If anything, I'd prefer they kept the Norse Giants (Hill, Frost, Fire, and either Cloud/Storm) and kept the rest for other books.

Well, hill giants seem to be English/Welsh-inspired, and cloud or storm giants are inspired by (what? titans, maybe?) but I agree 100% in any case!

That said, I'm surprised that they're not just making giants, spectral undead, etc. into monster progressions rather than having them as one-offs. It's especially odd that they'd be splitting mechanically-similar monsters into separate *books*. If 4e is to have more of the easy-to-use toolset aspect to it than 3e does, at least from the DM's point of view, than why spread iconic monsters across multiple books in discrete stat format?

 

[Varianor Abroad]

If 4e is to have more of the easy-to-use toolset aspect to it than 3e does, at least from the DM's point of view, than why spread iconic monsters across multiple books in discrete stat format?

To sell more books.

 

[jester47]

This is old and cold (I went to spain) so let me clarify: When I said everything in the SRD, I meant those fantasy standards that cover most myth and legend. The ones I know that don't belong are commented on cause I couldn't bear to leave them out.

Monsters (A)
Angel
Animated Object
Archon

Monsters (B)
Basilisk
Bugbear
Bulette (because referenceing a SNL skit at the table is always fun)

Monsters (C)
Centaur
Chimera
Cockatrice
Coutal

Monsters (D)
Demon
Derro
Devil
Dire Animal
Doppelganger
Dragon, True
Dragon Turtle
Dryad
Dwarf
Deep Dwarf
Duergar
Mountain Dwarf

Monsters (E)
Eagle, Giant
Elemental
Air Elemental
Earth Elemental
Fire Elemental
Water Elemental
Elf
Half-Elf
Aquatic Elf
Drow
Gray Elf
Wild Elf
Wood Elf
Ettin

Monsters (F)
Fiendish Creature

Monsters (G)
Gargoyle
Genie
Djinni
Efreeti
Janni
Ghost
Ghoul
Ghast
Giant
Cloud Giant
Fire Giant
Frost Giant
Hill Giant
Stone Giant
Storm Giant
Gibbering Mouther (A weird monster that drives you insane is required)
Gnoll
Gnome
Svirfneblin
Forest Gnome
Goblin
Golem
Clay Golem
Flesh Golem
Iron Golem
Stone Golem
Greater Stone Golem
Griffon

Monsters (H)
Hag
Annis
Green Hag
Sea Hag
Halfling
Tallfellow
Deep Halfling
Harpy
Hell Hound
Hippogriff
Hobgoblin
Hydra
Pyrohydra
Cryohydra

Monsters (I)
Invisible Stalker (Think Forbidden Planet)

Monsters (K)
Kobold
Kraken

Monsters (L)
Lich
Lizardfolk
Lycanthrope (only three of these seem to be real fantasy staples)
Werebear
Wererat
Werewolf

Monsters (M)
Manticore
Medusa
Merfolk
Mimic (A certain pearwood Chest comes to mind)
Minotaur
Mummy

Monsters (N)
Naga
Dark Naga
Guardian Naga
Spirit Naga
Water Naga
Night Hag (Could probably roll this into Hag)
Nightmare
Nymph

Monsters (O)
Ogre
Ooze (Without Oozes its just not D&D)
Black Pudding
Gelatinous Cube
Gray Ooze
Ochre Jelly
Orc
Half-Orcs
Owl, Giant
Owlbear (Cause it is such a perfect brute and is wierd in that D&D sort of Way)

Monsters (P)
Pegasus
Planetouched
Aasimar
Tiefling
Pseudodragon
Purple Worm

Monsters (R)
Rakshasa (legend from india)
Remorhaz (Cause they are cool)
Roc (big birds needed)
Roper (just cause)
Rust Monster (nuff said)

Monsters (S)
Sahuagin (someone has to stand in for the Deep Ones)
Salamander
Satyr
Shadow
Shambling Mound (gotta have the mound!)
Skeleton
Spectre
Sphinx
Sprite

Monsters (T)
Tarrasque (unstoppable!)
Tendriculos (angry living plant needed)
Titan
Treant
Troglodyte
Troll
Scrag

Monsters (U)
Unicorn

Monsters (V)
Vampire
Vampire Spawn

Monsters (W)
Wight
Will-O’-Wisp
Worg
Wraith
Wyvern

Monsters (Z)
Zombie

Monsters (Animals)
Monsters (Vermin)

 

[jester47]

The above list is what I think should be in every first MM and should be mroe than sacred These are the monsters that are essentially Public Domain. The Frost Giant is just an example because they brought it up. If they said some monsters would be missing, and that they were from the standard Public Domain fantasy stock, I would be just as cautious as I am being now.

Why stop at frost Giants, why not expand it to dragons? First MM only has Red Dragons, Green Dragons, Silver and Gold. If you want more colors you will have to buy more books.

The reason they don't do this is because they know that the torches and pitchforks would come out the second they did.

 

[jester47]

Well, hill giants seem to be English/Welsh-inspired, and cloud or storm giants are inspired by (what? titans, maybe?) but I agree 100% in any case!

Giants living in clouds are inspired by the story "Jack and the Beanstock." A lot of D&D tropes come from the Jack vs. Giants Fairy Tale Cycle.

 

[med stud]

(...)I'd prefer they kept the Norse Giants (Hill, Frost, Fire, and either Cloud/Storm) and kept the rest for other books.
(...)

I have read quite a bit about Norse mythology and frost giants ("rimtursar") are mentioned as a separate entity. They are not expanded upon more and Thor never faces specified "frost giants." The Norseness of frost giants is essentially one reference. The fire giants are the giants from Muspelheim, led by Surt, the archetypical fire giant. They are never described as "giant dwarves" that keep hell hounds as pets. I can't see the mythological connection other than that both D&D fire giants and Surt are black (Surt by the way means "black"). Giants in Norse mythology are also never referenced to as "hill giants", "cloud giants" or "storm giants."

Those giants are a part of D&D mythology but they bear very small resemblance to giants as they are described in Nordic mythology.

 

[Scribble]

While the hints at the new exception based mechanics sound intriguing, I'm turned off by the purposeful delay of iconic monsters to get us to buy additional monster manuals in the future. I often buy additional monster manuals anyway, but I really resent being manipulated into spending money on stuff I don't want in order to get stuff I want. If WOTC wants us all to get future monster manuals, they should fill them with great new monsters, not hold off on iconic monsters to include in the future.

The trouble with that is that it's hard to say what monsters will stick and be good monsters.

Also add on to that that I think a lot of people have gotten stuck in the these monsters are D&D anything else is just a waste of money mode...

How many 3e only monsters really have any kind of traction? Is it because they're bad, or just because they don't have a history, and nostalgia?