D&D 5E Balance in Races

[Kikuras]

Going back to my goofy blurb about intrinsic values, there is something to be said for flavor. I generally choose race based on the flavor of the character, and not the optimization of racial bonuses. This can often be counterproductive in some groups. I feel that IF there is a mathematical sacrifice, that it is worth the reward of being able to play the chosen race.

I will admit, however, that if you're going to go through the effort of establishing a humanoid race of people descended from dragons, and who retain traits such as scale color and breath weapon, that it seems a bit odd that they can't see in the dark. I would at least house rule tiny vestigial tails and wings.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I will admit, however, that if you're going to go through the effort of establishing a humanoid race of people descended from dragons, and who retain traits such as scale color and breath weapon, that it seems a bit odd that they can't see in the dark.

Really? Would you say that when people think about dragons, one of the first things that springs to mind is "creatures who can see in the dark"? I don't see how that's such an essential part of the creature's decription that it has to be included in Dragonborns' abilities.

 

[Kikuras]

Really? Would you say that when people think about dragons, one of the first things that springs to mind is "creatures who can see in the dark"? I don't see how that's such an essential part of the creature's decription that it has to be included in Dragonborns' abilities.

I didn't say HAS to, just that it's a bit odd. And it's not so much when I think 'dragon' that I think darkvision, but rather when I think 'powerful monstrous enemy'. Yes, I know there are good dragons too, but let's face it, no one wanders into an unkown dragon's lair expecting it to be metallic. My comment was really a round about way of pointing out (as others have) that there's no real reason for dragonborn not to have darkvision except as an arbitrary way to reduce the number of player races that have it.

If it helps, dragons DO have darkvision.

 

[Sailor Moon]

5th edition wasn't designed around everything being balanced down to a numerical level. You play an elf because you want to play a pointy eared humanoid with fair skin and delicate features. You play a dwarf because you want to play a short and stocky humanoid that is tough as nails and has a gruff attitude. You don't play an elf to complain that the tiefling gets better stuff than you. They have abilities that go with the theme of the race.

 

[furysmuse]

I wonder what was the thought process behind giving dragon born fewer perks. They are not the norm in my game. They are rarely seen, as are Half-orcs, tieflings and Half-elves. All dragon born, tieflings and half-orcs are treated with various forms of fear and fascination. Some are drawn to them because of their rareness, their willingness to just walk into a small town, their beautiful colors, and others walk on the other side of the street, make religious signs towards them, or outright try to get them out of their town. It's a mixed bag. But, it certainly is a race that is built in such a way that you prolly won't choose it unless you just want to be cool like that.
I am reluctant to hand out another dark vision in my game because there are so many races with it already, but I do like the idea of advantage on charisma based skills, or adding in proficiency to charisma based skills.
I think it would be interesting if other traits that belong to each specific dragon type might emerge. Gold dragon born have a higher wisdom, for example. Or perhaps, something more fluffy: green dragon born have extra long legs, bronze dragon born have webbing between their fingers and toes.

 

[steeldragons]

I am so confused by so many comments here about the dragonborn. Granted, I have no great love for them so maybe I'm just not seeing the attractive nuances of the race for those that love them. But to keep saying "but they don't get...", "Why didn't they get...", "They don't have enough..."

Yeah. It would have made sense for them to have Darkvision. I would have taken it right off the Half-Elf or Half-Orc...or even Tiefling (wanna see in the dark? Be a warlock), as a race, before the Dragonborn...But I wasn't the one designing them. Put it in. Not gonna hurt anybody.

[As a completely irrelevant aside to the conversation, but I agree with those who say they should always have had tails. The designers love tiefling tails sooooo much. I can only come to the conclusion that in the design of Dragonborn, tails were chopped off 1) to separate them from the tail-y tieflings and make tiefling more "oo special", and 2) provide more differentiation from folks saying "they're just lizardmen with breath weapons". But, again, I wasn't the designer there...But they should have tails. ]

BUT, back to the complaints on what the dragonborn gets/doesn't get...

You are a walking dragon-man. Yes, that matters. Yes, that gets noticed. Yes, that earns [or should earn] you some immeasurable situational "stuff" in the game world.

You have resistance to an energy type. Is it going to matter every fight all of the time? No. Does it matter all of the time? Yes! Is it ALWAYS "on/active"? Yes. Does it matter what level you are? Nope. You are taking half damage ALWAYS from a particular energy type.

Is it situational? Yes. As all kinds of racial abilities are. Is it "weaker" or "less special" than a dwarf getting poison resistance or a tiefling getting fire? Not really, no. It is, perhaps, en par with the variant Aasimar in the DMG, with radiant/necrotic resistance...more specialized/less likely to be encountered as often as [in most "default D&D world" cases] the tiefling's fire...unless, of course, you just take (brass, red or gold) fire yourself. But to suggest that this is a throw away ability/"not enough"/"doesn't count" as a substantial racial ability is just baffling.

You have a breath weapon. A. Breath. Weapon. "It's not often enough to be a big deal"?!? (Yes it depends on the table, but with fairly conservative "short rests", you should be getting in a minimum of twice -maybe 3 times- a day!) "It shouldn't take my action [to barf up some fire or lightning]"?! Seriously? But insinuate player entitlement around here and I'll get my head chewed off!

Another thing, officially speaking, the Dragonborn are an "Uncommon race." They are not an assumed part of every D&D universe. So, saying "But they're not as good as dwarves or elves" doesn't work. Apples to oranges. They are not "the same" as the default races. They are not supposed to be.

The ONLY thing that tieflings have over dragonborn is darkvision. The tiefling's magic is not really any more powerful than the breath weapon. Your spells are only twice per day, once you get both of them, after 5th level. Sure, you can spam your cantrip...that does no damage! Dragonborn breath weapon does damage.

The ONLY thing half-elves have that Dragonborn don't is darkvision. Otherwise, they have a situational resistance. Check. And 2 skill proficiencies. No damage dealing pyrotechnics or devil-born spell use there. Big woo. Right, who's next...

The Half-Orc has a few more traits, in number, than other "Uncommon races"...But look at what they are. Right darkvision is there again. So that's different. Once per long rest, you can "give yourself/keep" 1 HP. Congrats. A single prescribed skill proficiency (half-elves get TWO...of their choice! The bastards!) and something that gets you extra weapon damage...better make sure you always have a weapon on you. Yes. It's 3 things (4 if you count darkvision, but we already know that's the same as everyone else), instead of 2. And all of them are less effective/more situational than the Dragonborn.

THe gnomes are a bit more complex, given their subraces (none of the other Uncommon types have subraces. Wussupwitdat?) Gnome Cunning (huge, as noted), Minor Illusions (again, a cantrip, but no damage), and talking to squirrels...and darkvision. OR Gnome Cunning, a situational Int. check bonus, make annoying little toys (which deal no damage, though one can conceivably start a fire. So that, I guess, could be dangerous in the right arsonistic pyromaniac gnomish mind) if you spend money and time...and darkvision.

So...yeah this is a lot longer than what I think I was intending to say at the start, but bottom line...I think...If I'm remembering what I wanted it to be...the Dragonborn are not appreciably "less effective", "more situational" or chintzed out on than any other race.

Just houserule them darkvision, relax, and play on!

PS: Also boggles that the word "situational" comes up as a misspelling.

 

[The Grand User]

(first of all, I would have preferred races to have a bit more mechanical punch in general, or at least race + background and maybe some other component that could be general or be filled by the race, like humans/dwarves/elves get race+background+this-other-thing, while Dragonborn would just get race+background, but their race would have more to it)

It seems to me, it's a problem similar to both the 1st level wizard and the fighter of 3.x and earlier editions. You got your special ability (spell or bw) to use once, then you have to fallback on not being a wizard for a while. And like the fighter, it doesn't have much more to it. And both cases, you could still gain RP benefits, but that's true for everyone else as well. Now, I will admit it's not really as bad for the Dragonborn as it was for those classes then, I'm just trying to compare it to how sometimes it feels.

Also, for me, playing a human, dwarf, elf, etc., has more focus put on the class rather than a race, you're playing a (class) that is a (race); but when I play Dragonborn it's more about playing a Dragonborn that is a (class). But the way D&D is designed, it doesn't really help with that distinction, as it's always a "you're a (class), oh, and you're this (race) too".

Another thing, officially speaking, the Dragonborn are an "Uncommon race." They are not an assumed part of every D&D universe. So, saying "But they're not as good as dwarves or elves" doesn't work. Apples to oranges. They are not "the same" as the default races. They are not supposed to be.

I have to strongly disagree, it's not apples to oranges. The distinction of common/uncommon should only be a guideline for a setting designer (aka, GM) with how to put the race within the context of their world, or tossed completely as he sees fit. It should have nothing to do with how equivalent in power/mechanics/stuff they are to the other races. Merely being an option is what should make them equivalent to the other races.

Now, maybe they really are equivalent to the other races mechanically, (and perhaps a bit superior RP-wise ) but the impression they give is that they aren't. I think this is due to their complete lack of an out of combat ability, and their combat ability is only useful once per combat. Maybe the solution would be to lower the damage dice to d4s, let it be recharge 5-6, and usable as any other attack (so can be part of the warrior classes' several attacks).

And I'm seriously consider them a minor tail slap attack usable as a bonus action


And darkvision is boring

I think they really nailed the teifling's out of combat ability with that cantrip, it's just perfect for them. Also you missed that half-elves get an extra ability bonus over the others

 

[Mephista]

5th edition wasn't designed around everything being balanced down to a numerical level. You play an elf because you want to play a pointy eared humanoid with fair skin and delicate features. You play a dwarf because you want to play a short and stocky humanoid that is tough as nails and has a gruff attitude. You don't play an elf to complain that the tiefling gets better stuff than you. They have abilities that go with the theme of the race.

No, you play a tiefling to complain about all the nice stuff the elf gets!

Just kidding!

 

[Mephista]

You have a breath weapon. A. Breath. Weapon. "It's not often enough to be a big deal"?!? (Yes it depends on the table, but with fairly conservative "short rests", you should be getting in a minimum of twice -maybe 3 times- a day!) "It shouldn't take my action [to barf up some fire or lightning]"?! Seriously? But insinuate player entitlement around here and I'll get my head chewed off!

I think you're missing the issue here, Steel Dragon. First, dragon breath was a minor action in 4e, so people are kinda wishing for the equivalent in 5e. Because, to be honest, the damage doesn't make it worthwhile to use as a full round action.

And that's really the entire crux of the matter. 2d6, DC based on Con (generally an underdeveloped attribute) save for half. You don't even get an attribute boost for it, unlike every other race with a magical ability. By level 6, the chances are you have far better options to use than your breath weapon. A paladin, barbarian, skald, or fighter will have better damage from just regular attacks. A sorcerer could be doing better damage with a level 1 spell.

In short, the breath weapon is THE signature aspect of the dragonborn, and it falls short in a lot of cases. Making it a minor action, increasing the damage, something to make it worthwhile to use would be lovely.

 

[Kikuras]

To expand on what I've said before, I think the best solution is to feed all gnomes to the dragonborn, then have all the dragonborn battle all the tieflings to the death, the execute the victors! Then we can get back to playing D&D