Balance question: Replacing Dailies with Encounters

[Nemesis Destiny]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]

That's fine, I can just ctrl+c, ctrl+v into a text file or google doc

I am interested in how far a class like that can be pushed because I have a player that wants a very specific character concept that I'm having trouble making with the existing material. On the one hand I think he may be reaching for too much in one package, but on the other hand I want to be able to allow him to play the kind of character he wants to play.

Basically the gist is an idea he took from Fable: Journeys (which I think is kind of lame, but whatever) - he wants a character that (1) Can mark at range, (2) Can punish the mark by pushing the enemy away from the target ally, (3) Can fight competently with a sword, and (4) can cast an at will Force, Fire, and Lightning spell, and make them into a burst sometimes. He wanted to duplicate the "redirect" ability as well, but I figure that Magic Missile can cover that.

I haven't played this game, but he showed me the demo and some youtube videos, so I have an idea what he's after. I couldn't think of a way to make it happen without a convoluted chain of feats and even then I wasn't sure it was all that workable. I tried throwing together a custom class, but I was worried it was too powerful and tried to do too much. The biggest worry I have is with the theoretical potency of item #2.

The best thoughts I had for accomplishing his goals would be to build it off either a Swordmage or Bladesinger chassis.

Anyway, this is a huge digression from the original topic, but your modified Bladesinger got me thinking

 

[Manbearcat]

- he wants a character that (1) Can mark at range, (2) Can punish the mark by pushing the enemy away from the target ally, (3) Can fight competently with a sword, and (4) can cast an at will Force, Fire, and Lightning spell, and make them into a burst sometimes. He wanted to duplicate the "redirect" ability as well, but I figure that Magic Missile can cover that.

Does he expect 2 to be an immediate interrupt? If so, that is too much. If he's good with it being an immediate reaction then I see no problem with throwing out this feat chain (3 feat investment).

Blade Initiate (You can just give him one skill from the SM skill list as he already has Arcana).

A secondary SM multi-class feat that lets him use Aegis of Assault as an Encounter Power.

A third feat that lets him use a Bladespell (such as Unseen Hand) against the enemy as an Immediate Reaction after the enemy violates the Aegis.

That would do the trick. Or you could just make it a Theme for him with 2 as the first level feature and 3 as the 5th level feature. Tenth level feature would be a + 2 to two skill or something more interesting.

Done.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yeah, the sticking point was that he wanted to interrupt the attack, and my instinct was that it was too powerful as well. Even predicated on an implement attack against Fortitude, it's either potent or useless.

Compared to other mark punishments (free attacks, damage ablation, small amount of autodamage) it is pretty good, and can easily outstrip several options. I mean, free attacks and autodamage can down opponents, damage ablation can completely soak an attack, but the first two require weakened enemies and the second one will not stop most attacks completely.

The ranged element seems strong as well. I've considered allowing fighters to do mark punishment with bows as a build option, but the range might make it too good without some other mitigating factors (like vastly reduced damage and/or range).

At the same time, I feel like as an Immediate Reaction it's kind of weak. I mean, the damage is already done.

 

[Manbearcat]

I wouldn't say its that bad. It provides:

1) Ranged control at - 2 to hit and thus incentive to attack the Defender.
2) Punishment in the way of damage and control (Bladespell) that is automatic (no attack roll).
3) A net gain in the action economy that he otherwise would not have access to in the way of an immediate action (as 2).

Beyond that, those 3 feats would also give him an extra trained skill and Swordmage Warding as a Daily (huge for boss fights).

Another option is building a Paragon Path for the character off the Coronal Guard chassis. It has the below level 11 Encounter power which appears to play to the type he's looking for:

Originally posted by WotC
Countering Thunderclap
You interrupt an enemy attack with a clap of thunder, driving the foe back from your friend before the enemy can strike.

Encounter

Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Immediate Interrupt Close burst 5
Trigger: A creature hits your ally with a melee attack
Target: The triggering attacker
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 1 square. If the target can no longer reach your ally, the attack misses.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Cool! I hadn't seen this before.

I guess I misunderstood something earlier in your suggestion as well (or was stuck in my own head), because when I thought the Reaction version of the push was too weak, I was envisioning the version I had thought up which was essentially a souped-up Mage Hand, so it did no damage. I'll re-read your suggestion.

An Interrupt seems much less problematic as an encounter power.

 

[Ahrimon]

I've been wanting to experiment by making dailies into encounter powers, but they cost a surge to use.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Nemesis Destiny Here is another route that should do the trick nicely. If he takes the Bladesinger class, multi-classes Swordmage (takes Blade Initiate), you could let him trade out his second use of Song of Celerity Encounter power at level 3 and he could take a reskinned version of the level 3 Swordmage power below:

Originally posted by WotC
Dimensional Vortex
Lashing out with your sword, you warp space, causing your foe to appear a short distance away and unleash its attack elsewhere.
Encounter

Arcane, Implement, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy hits an ally with a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: You teleport the target 5 squares. The target then makes its melee attack against a creature you choose. If no creatures are within range of the target, the attack is expended.

This ability is an immediate interrupt, range 10, outright action denial + lets you force that attack onto one of your enemies. You can easily re-skin that to a Force push and trade the attack for prone. Add correct flavor text, rename it as something like "Forceful Imposition" and win. That is easily at the same power level as the corresponding Swordmage attack (probably less so as it attacks Fort instead of Will) and slightly less so than the corresponding Ranger attack (Disruptive Strike; which lets you riposte attacks against you as well). As below:

Forceful Imposition
Your watchful eye reveals an enemy's hand raised against your ally. He is but a puppet to you as you fling him across the battlefield.
Encounter

Arcane, Force, Implement, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy hits an ally with a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: You push the target 5 squares and the target falls prone.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

@Nemesis Destiny Here is another route that should do the trick nicely. If he takes the Bladesinger class, multi-classes Swordmage (takes Blade Initiate), you could let him trade out his second use of Song of Celerity Encounter power at level 3 and he could take a reskinned version of the level 3 Swordmage power below:



This ability is an immediate interrupt, range 10, outright action denial + lets you force that attack onto one of your enemies. You can easily re-skin that to a Force push and trade the attack for prone. Add correct flavor text, rename it as something like "Forceful Imposition" and win. That is easily at the same power level as the corresponding Swordmage attack (probably less so as it attacks Fort instead of Will) and slightly less so than the corresponding Ranger attack (Disruptive Strike; which lets you riposte attacks against you as well). As below:

Yeah, those are pretty good ideas as well. I already allow free use of power swaps for multiclassing in my game, so this could work pretty nicely.

Our last exchange got me thinking along the lines of a MC or even hybrid Swordmage|Wizard but allowing him to mostly pick Bladesinger At-wills.

Thanks again for the input!

 

[Siberys]

How about this?

Daily attack powers can now be used once per encounter, and they have an additional special usage requirement - you must spend 2 healing surges to use them. Whenever you would gain a daily attack power, you also gain 2 healing surges (replacing does not grant additional HS). As a result, you can use the same daily multiple times a day, or once a day, or not at all, and any way it swings you're getting something out of it.

Problem: What about non-attack daily powers, such as item or utility dailies? I still don't want those to be daily in the standard sense, but I want there to be a cost. I also didn't want to attach the 'additional healing surges when gained' to utility powers, because then a player could game the system to gain a ton of HS.

It could just be "Daily non-attacks cost 1 HS, Daily attacks cost 2", but that would disincentivize the use of non-attack dailies... Ideas?

 

[TwoSix]

Here's a question.

What's the expected number of dailies to expend per encounter?

If you know that, take the number of dailies per encounter, multiply by the number of encounters needed to level, and give tokens per level that must be spent to use a daily.

It only becomes a problem if you want to map that to the fiction layer.