Balance test: does +2 Int make a race at least +1 LA?

[DarkMaster]

This is true but (-4 Con) is the kind of balance that I'd tend to avoid (-2 Con, -2 Dex could be ok, but I'd prefer something that somewhat hurts their spellcasting, like a specialist's limitation). I don't like balancing a power with too much increased lethality. I doesn't go well with my style of play.



By choosing half orc, a PC loses some abilities that are relevant to his combat focus, like int prerequisites for feats, bonus feats or weapon familiarity.
The choice is less obvious than in the spellcaster's case, who relies on a single stat, and finds no bonus relevant to his spell "focus" in advantages from other races.


Chacal

Well constitution penality limits his ability to cast in combat, and to survive. Limiting the ability to survive doesn't mean that it dies all the time, but will force the character to be more cautious, or restrain from doing some activity because they are judged too dangerous.

Also Int for a 2hw wielder Barbarian is almost useless by the time they have access to the feat they can access magical object to compensate. In my campaign a +1 DC or +1 first level spell do will not impact enough to justify a +1 especially if it is balanced by something else.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Not true, what kind of power game are you playing. Give a class that has a +2 Int plus some other bonus and put a -2 or -4 Con or a (-2 Con, -2 dex) and you will see alot of player hesitate to take it for their wizard. Their wizard will be a slightly better spell caster but will always struggle to survive any encounter. (there are tons of other example)

I think many players would take -4 Con or -2 Con/-2 Dex for +2 spellcasting stat.

Also going with the same logic, all barbarian and fighter would be half-orc. In my campaing one of the player choose to be a barbarian human because he wanted more skills and wanted a minimum of charisma.

No, not really. Primary spellcasters are much more focused than the other classes -- they care much more about their main stat than others do.

CRG, I don't know, but there are plenty benefits in playing a human, dwarven, gnome or halfling spellcaster as well.

The Int bonus (or Wis, Cha) is surely very powerful, however, especially considering how tough it is to get spell save DCs up.

I didn't say there were no benefits, but that they pale in comparison -- especially considering the difficulty with DCs, as you noted.

 

[~Johnny~]

I the +2 Int deserves a bit of extra weight, but not an automatic +1 LA. I'd never want to play a Blue for stat reasons. It's balanced when compared to the standard goblin, but the standard goblin as a PC race is underpowered.

 

[Scion]

Lets look at the blue vs goblin comparison.

Effectively they are the same except that the blue gets +2 int whereas the goblin gets a +2 dex.

Now, the +2 dex does more for more types of characters, and generally is just plain better than the +2 int.

But casters can get a bit of extra oomph out of the +2 int than normal classes, brining +2 int up to being worth the same as the +2 dex for them.

Which means that, generally, the blue is 'weaker' than the goblin, except when the blue is a primary int caster, and then it is about even.

Seems more than fine to me at +0, if anything they are both pretty weak for a +0 though, but both still playable.

There should probably be a bunch of core classes, maybe at least 13 total, two for each stat at +2, and then the human. All of them +0, and with a lot of interesting, even if minor, abilities like the halflings, gnomes, and dwarfs. This would make many things much easier, and completely negate any sentiments of, 'uh oh, they have a bonus to a stat! quick, hit them with an LA!'. After all, it isnt like every archer out there is one of the races with a +2 dex, but even if they were, that wouldnt mean that it was broken to have that ability for archers, just that people like to play characters who are good at what they do.

Even in this case though, if blue was +0, it is still a better option to take human a pretty good portion of the time. Psions need several feats, and a human psion at first level could pick up psionic body, and two other psionic feats, and have +6hp at first level mmmm..

 

[Ferret]

Theres a wizard in our group that has 8 hp, if he hadn't had his conbonus he would have most likely died. Everyone need constitution.

 

[Ferret]

Don't know how this double post sliped by.

 

[James McMurray]

The problem seems to lie in the reverse proposition :
When a class has a race which is better suited to.

They are one and the same. Dual-wielding rogues are better suited to halflings. Tank fighters are better suited to dwarves.

I think many players would take -4 Con or -2 Con/-2 Dex for +2 spellcasting stat.

Not any players that are cognisant of the logistics of playing a spellcaster. Low con, and to a lesser extent low dex, will kill you unless your DM is of the type to not kill characters. No player wanting to power game will trade +1 to save DCs, +1 skill point per level, and a few bonus spells for a character with an average of 1-1.5 hit point per hit die (and especially not a character with a MAX of 2 hit points per hit die).

No, not really. Primary spellcasters are much more focused than the other classes -- they care much more about their main stat than others do.

Primary spellcasters care about three stats. The most concern is given to the mental stat that dictates their spellcasting. Second and third are dexterity and constitution, with order being based on player preference as both stats are fairly equal in value to a spellcaster.

Melee fighters focus on three stats: Strength followed by dexterity and constituion, with dex or con's order being determined by player preference.

Archers focus on three stats: Dexterity followed by stength and constituion, with str or con's order being determined by player preference.

 

[Ferrix]

CDG: So did you add a +1 LA to all the core races with stat modifiers in 3.0 when the psionics handbook came out cause they have an adjustment to a primary stat for the psion since the primary stats were dependant upon which type of psion you were (and they had one for each stat)?

Really, a +2 to a spellcasting attribute doesn't unbalance a spellcaster, it makes it nice to be that race/class combo with that attribute boost but you also still get a penalty to another attribute, usually one which is important. And it far from breaks the game.

 

[DiFier]

I know that this isn't Core 3.5 but in Monte cook's Arcana Unearthed there is a base race called the mohj they have +2 int -2 Con, no LA.

 

[Will]

I don't think a +2 even with no penalties would necessarily be a full +1 LA.

You're telling me that maybe one extra spell and +1 on spell saves is equivalent to, say, SR = 10 + character level?