Balance when dropping 'automatic' spells?
- Thread starter Herzog
- Start date
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
What is the goal of this restriction? What benefit do you see arising from it?
Because the cost is a loss of flexibility in how wizards build their characters. Imagine if fighters were restricted in what feats they could learn- say, only those possessed by enemy fighters they defeated in battle. It would really cramp the development of their characters.
I could see restricting the free spells in some way- only those in the PHB, say. More exotic spells have to be acquired in game. But you'd have to solicit feedback as to what kind of material your players would like to see introduced.
Because the cost is a loss of flexibility in how wizards build their characters. Imagine if fighters were restricted in what feats they could learn- say, only those possessed by enemy fighters they defeated in battle. It would really cramp the development of their characters.
I could see restricting the free spells in some way- only those in the PHB, say. More exotic spells have to be acquired in game. But you'd have to solicit feedback as to what kind of material your players would like to see introduced.
Yes, most DMs realize that full casters are too powerful in relation to non-caster classes and act accordingly.
Nebten
First Post
To help balance this out, you are going to have to supply him with more gold to suppliment the cost of adding more spells (unless you house ruled this already). And you are going to have to make sure he has ample time to scribe spells into his spell book. Remember, it takes 2 days to scribe a spell into his spell book. One to learn the spell, then another to scribe it. If you have a very mobile campaign I would warn your wizard ahead of time to see if this is the character he would like to play. When I played a wizard in Red Hand of Doom, there was an importance of time. Just having a week off to scribe new spells was better then gold. So throwing a bunch of spellbooks & scrolls at a wizard won't be much good unless he has time to scribe it in his own spellbook.
Honestly, I don't see a problem with it as long as he's going to gain access to spells when mages are defeated... however, you should allow for research, development, arcane discussions with friendlies, and other access to magic.
Really, the reason why mages are so overpowered in most cases comes from the cherrypicking of spells. If you let the player gain spells in such a hodgepodge way he may actually develop a mage which has to think about its spell choice, AND a more interesting spell list develops some fascinating work arounds
.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
Really, the reason why mages are so overpowered in most cases comes from the cherrypicking of spells. If you let the player gain spells in such a hodgepodge way he may actually develop a mage which has to think about its spell choice, AND a more interesting spell list develops some fascinating work arounds
.Slainte,
-Loonook.
Arkhandus
First Post
I just hope you're gimping clerics, druids, and similar casters as well. Make them research their spells the same as a wizard (probably start with all 0-level and 1st-level core spells learned).
Honestly, the cost of learning and scribing spells is prohibitive, but not too onerous. I've played several wizards in 2e and 3.x, and while it's tough to acquire new spells sometimes, it is true that they're exceedingly powerful/versatile at the upper levels compared to warriors/skillmonkeys. Limiting their available funds for magic items (due to spell-research/scribing costs) will not ruin the viability of wizards. Just make sure they have access to other spellbooks or scrolls for spell-learning when they need it.
Honestly, the cost of learning and scribing spells is prohibitive, but not too onerous. I've played several wizards in 2e and 3.x, and while it's tough to acquire new spells sometimes, it is true that they're exceedingly powerful/versatile at the upper levels compared to warriors/skillmonkeys. Limiting their available funds for magic items (due to spell-research/scribing costs) will not ruin the viability of wizards. Just make sure they have access to other spellbooks or scrolls for spell-learning when they need it.
Herzog
Adventurer
For the record, I've banned druids until I can balance them.
I do have one psion in the game, but it hasn't proven unbalancing yet.
I'm still looking for a way to limit the cleric spells.(any suggestions welcome)
I could, of course, do the same as with the wizard, but the campaign has been underway for quite some time now, and the cleric has up to now allways has access to all cleric spells.
There are no sorcerers yet, and they will also need to obtain spells (through contacting demons, as mentioned before)
I have already discussed it with the player playing the wizard, and he has accepted the rule for now, as long as he feels he's receiving enough oppertunity and money to get the spells he nees/wants.
On the subject of having to spent downtime: he's planning to build a Craft-heavy wizard, so he's already counting on down time, which I plan to give him.
There is no time-constraint on the campaign I'm running, so downtime won't be an issue.
Regarding getting enough gold: they have already spent ressurrection costs on this player twice, once to get his third character raised, and then when he realisde ressurrection was available (it had just become available in the campaign) again to get is first character raised. Sharing gold is not really an issue in this group, so I expect it not to become one in the future.
Also, because of the way I handle spell preparation, a memorized spell is not 'forgotten' when cast. This means a wizard could use a found spellbook to memorize the spell (trying again the next day when it fails) until he has the time and money to copy it. He only has to get it right once, or until he needs the spell(known)slot to prepare another spell.
I do have one psion in the game, but it hasn't proven unbalancing yet.
I'm still looking for a way to limit the cleric spells.(any suggestions welcome)
I could, of course, do the same as with the wizard, but the campaign has been underway for quite some time now, and the cleric has up to now allways has access to all cleric spells.
There are no sorcerers yet, and they will also need to obtain spells (through contacting demons, as mentioned before)
I have already discussed it with the player playing the wizard, and he has accepted the rule for now, as long as he feels he's receiving enough oppertunity and money to get the spells he nees/wants.
On the subject of having to spent downtime: he's planning to build a Craft-heavy wizard, so he's already counting on down time, which I plan to give him.
There is no time-constraint on the campaign I'm running, so downtime won't be an issue.
Regarding getting enough gold: they have already spent ressurrection costs on this player twice, once to get his third character raised, and then when he realisde ressurrection was available (it had just become available in the campaign) again to get is first character raised. Sharing gold is not really an issue in this group, so I expect it not to become one in the future.
Also, because of the way I handle spell preparation, a memorized spell is not 'forgotten' when cast. This means a wizard could use a found spellbook to memorize the spell (trying again the next day when it fails) until he has the time and money to copy it. He only has to get it right once, or until he needs the spell(known)slot to prepare another spell.
Thanael
Explorer
Why not use a spell path system ? There a wizard has to learn burning hands before he can master fireball, if he chose to learn the path of fire. This cuts down on cherry picking, and adds some flavour as a bonus.
Check out the following post for some resources: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...how-do-you-make-mage-magical.html#post4653113 (includes links and info for different spell path systems)
Check out the following post for some resources: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...how-do-you-make-mage-magical.html#post4653113 (includes links and info for different spell path systems)
Herzog
Adventurer
Mostly because I want to be able to make decisions 'on the spot' instead of having to lay out the entire system.
By removing the 'automatic' spells, I ensure any given spell has been put into a spellbook or on a scroll by me.
By allowing research, I still enable him to get access outside of the 'given' sets, but he will have to show it to me before he can add it.
I like wizards having to put in some effort within the game to aquire new spells. Putting spell research into the background reduces it, IMO, to a mundane level.
By removing the 'automatic' spells, I ensure any given spell has been put into a spellbook or on a scroll by me.
By allowing research, I still enable him to get access outside of the 'given' sets, but he will have to show it to me before he can add it.
I like wizards having to put in some effort within the game to aquire new spells. Putting spell research into the background reduces it, IMO, to a mundane level.
