Balanced Templates?

[Archade]

Hi all,

I've recently got a copy of Underdark, and I see an interesting precedent. It's got an example of a 6th level Sor/Wiz spell with an XP cost to the caster that will permanently bestow a template (Mineral Warrior, +1 EL) on a target. Cool.

So I've told one of my players who has been hankering for a template this is an option (I don't agree with the rituals in Savage Species). So he tells me he wants his Half-Orc to have the Feral template.

I looked at the template - waugh! Fast Healing 5, +6 Natural Armor, bonuses to Strength, Wisdom and Constitution, minuses to Dexterity and Intelligence, claw attacks, rend special attacks, and a few other minor goodies - and it's a *+1 template*.

Is this really balanced? Is this really +1 EL? Fast healing basically means the character will heal fully between encounters, it's armor class will skyrocket, etc. etc. The player of the character has already maximized his 11th level Half-Orc Barbarian Fighter into a killing machine. I'm extremely trepiditious about letting him have this kind of power ...

Opinions please.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

You're not the only one that thinks Feral is overpowered:

http://www.jonnydigital.com/talensforge/feral-rant.php

Also, there's this interesting tidbit here:

http://pub17.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm8.showMessage?topicID=149.topic

I have heard it argued about the feral template that the "special abilities" listed are based on the racial hit die of the base creature (not level)
[...]
Therefore a feral human would only get the 1HD special ability and there is only like one or two creatures that would get all of them.

AR

 

[iwatt]

I like the idea of using a speel or ritual for a template. But not for all templates. Feral is one of them. If I rememebr correctly, feral creatures were extremely viscious specimens of their species. Almost wild or rabid. I'd only allow it if the character went through enough of a harrowing series of experiences to loose his grip on humanity (like in Vampire the masquerade). Kinda of giving into the beast. I like the idea of templates for character's, but only if they're aquired through role-playing considerations. I'd even allow the Feral template, if enough justification is given. But rememeber, he's a rabid half-orc, which probably means some elf or dwarf paladin is gonna come and try to put him outta of his misery.

 

[Silveras]

As I read the template in question, it says the special abilities are based on the base creature's Monster Hit Dice (specifically). As such, since 1 HD humanoids "trade in" their monster hit dice for their 1st level class HD, a human has 0 Monster HD.

That would mean, a Feral Human would only get:
Type change to Monstrous Humanoid
+10 ft speed
2 1d8 claw attacks
+6 Natural Armo
The ability adjustments
Barbarian becomes Favored class

That being said, this discussion represents the primary reason why I consider SS to be a book for the DM, NOT for the Players.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Paying a one-time fixed XP cost to get a +LA template is never balanced.

Remember, there are only two possibilities:

The template is actually worth a level. In this case, the character has spent less XP than a level costs and gained a level. This is not balanced. In the long run, however, he's going to have to get his XP total high enough to get that level (including the XP he spent), and then get enough XP to get the next level, before he gets his next level. And he's going to be getting XP at the slower rate of a higher level character - so this means that he's actually going to end up paying for that level two or three times. In the long run - that isn't balanced either. So the campaign is either going to last long enough for the cost to come back and emasculate the character - or it isn't. In the short campaign, this option is too powerful. In the long campaign it is too weak. In either case, it is unbalanced.

The template is actually worth some arbitrary amount of XP. In this case, the character spends the XP, and gets an equal value exchange for that XP. But then he starts getting XP slower, which means that he is paying much more XP than the template is worth. Worse, he doesn't get a new level until he gets enough XP to gain his next two levels - reaming him again and again.

Spending flat XP to get templates that increase EL may be balanced or overpowered in the short run - but in the long campaign it is always definitionally horribly underpowered.

-Frank

 

[Hardhead]

The Feral template is the most horribly borken, uber-powerful, munchkin wet dream in Savage Species, along with the only slighly less offensive half-ogre.



- Z a c h

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

The Feral template is the most horribly borken, uber-powerful, munchkin wet dream in Savage Species

Unless it works as Silveras pointed out.

AR

 

[FrankTrollman]

The Feral template is the most horribly borken, uber-powerful, munchkin wet dream in Savage Species, along with the only slighly less offensive half-ogre.

If you start as an Orc, being a Half Ogre costs a level and provides no net bonus to hit in melee (and a net minus to hit at range).

So you do 1 point more damage from having a bigger strength, and 2 more points of damage from using a bigger weapon. You just multiclassed into a level to get zero BAB, zero save bonuses, zero hit points, zero skill points, zero skill rank increases, and 3 points of melee damage.

The Orc can get the same kind of melee damage boost by taking a Rogue (sneak attack, sometimes it even adds to ranged combat) level and gets saves, special abilities, hit points, and a whole rack of skills.

Half Ogres are mathematically slightly weak when compared to Orcs. Orcs are generally agreed to be on the weak end of playable races. Half Ogres are playable - but only just. If they were any weaker they'd be unbalanced in the low power direction.

Pretty much everything in Savage Species works like that.

-Frank