Balancing double-encounters?

[Jack99]

And by double encounters, I mean two encounters in a row, with no short rest in between.

Anyway. Example:

At level 5, a n+0 encounter is set at 1000 xp. So two n+0 encounters (in a row) would equate 2000 xp, which would, if all the monsters came together, be a n+4 (level 9) encounter.

I think it is safe to say, that of there is a big difference in the difficulty of the two type of encounters. 2 n+0 encounters in a row is manageable, while a n+4 encounter could devastate some parties.

I guess my question is, has anyone figured out a good way of evaluating the difficulty of the second encounter in a double encounter? Not xp-wise, obviously, since that's just adding up the monsters, but instead difficulty-wise to judge whether my players can handle said combat.

 

[Mesh Hong]

It really depends on party composition and level. But 2 level+0 encounters without a rest shouldn't really be a problem at all, the group might have to use a couple of dailies but that is a good thing.

A long time ago at the start of paragon tier my 6 PC group took on 3 encounters at the same time, not consecutively (I think they were +0, +0, +1 which worked out at about a level +6 encounter) and they loved it.

If you are worried about game pace or resource management you could have them all make standard DC endurance checks to regain the use of 1 encounter power, and even allow them to regain an additional encounter power if/when they use their second wind.

hmmm, in fact a house rule that allowed you to regain an encounter power when you used second wind might be quite interesting in general.

 

[Old_school_overlord]

I like having back to back encounters, its good for pacing an epic fight.

What I don't like is PCs running out of encounter & Dailies and having no options aside from spamming At-Wills.

Most recently I just gave everyone back their encounters at the halfwaypoint, along with a free surge for anyone bloodied.

Worked fine and the PCs took down the pair Lvl+2 with just a little bit of difficulty.

 

[Jack99]

It really depends on party composition and level. But 2 level+0 encounters without a rest shouldn't really be a problem at all, the group might have to use a couple of dailies but that is a good thing.

A long time ago at the start of paragon tier my 6 PC group took on 3 encounters at the same time, not consecutively (I think they were +0, +0, +1 which worked out at about a level +6 encounter) and they loved it.

If you are worried about game pace or resource management you could have them all make standard DC endurance checks to regain the use of 1 encounter power, and even allow them to regain an additional encounter power if/when they use their second wind.

hmmm, in fact a house rule that allowed you to regain an encounter power when you used second wind might be quite interesting in general.

Maybe I should have specified a couple of things.

I do not have a problem, nor does my group. So I am not really looking for a house-rule or anything like that. I know that at higher level, there are no such issues, as my players took 6 encounters in a row with no rest at epic levels (22-ish).

I am more interested in the theory part of things - how other DM's evaluate such situations.
I am more in

 

[MortalPlague]

I often break up encounters into waves, though I usually measure it as a single encounter. This only tends to happen on particularly difficult encounters (level +4 or higher).

That said, I always look for a way to give the party a short rest (or at least some sort of refresh) between fights. It may sound epic to fight back to back combats, but if you're down to at wills, it becomes a real grind.

 

[Katana_Geldar]

I thought you meant running two encounters at once with a split party amnd two initiative orders, which I have managed to do without going completely insane.

I agree with the waves and short rests between.

 

[TheClone]

I thought you meant running two encounters at once with a split party amnd two initiative orders, which I have managed to do without going completely insane.

I agree with the waves and short rests between.

Why not having one overall initiative order? Should be easier without any drawback, I guess.

 

[Mesh Hong]

I am more interested in the theory part of things - how other DM's evaluate such situations.

Ah well then. I rely on gut instinct and practical experience of what my group is capable of.

Not very helpful for anyone else but there are so many variables at play here that I don't think you could get a scientific response. As always I am ready to be proved wrong though by one of the mathematical geniuses on these boards

 

[Infiniti2000]

I would evaluate it by trying to determine if the PCs would be injured enough. Remember that even for PCs healing is limited. Without the short rest it's possible or likely that they will not be fully healed and will have no further option to spend a surge.

Even worse though is the expectation management. If this is an unusual and unexpected back-to-back encounter, the players will not be prepared for it. They'll spend their actions and powers with the expectation that they will have a short rest after the currently visible/available monsters are defeated. If that changes, bad things will happen. The worst of these bad things is probably as MortalPlague points out, a real grind.

Death before grind.

 

[Mengu]

Here is what I did very recently with some back to back encounters. I started with a very easy encounter, level-2, which they beat in 2-3 rounds, followed by a level equivalent encounter which took them about 4 rounds. This set the tempo and gave them an idea of what to expect, and gave most of them an extra action point to use without being pressed to use one in the easy early encounters (as well as an extra daily item use).

Next step was breaking through an enemy line, to chase after another group of enemies. During the planning, they knew they were going to be pressed on time and expected to fight multiple battles without a short rest. And also during the planning they got a short rest.

Next, I ran a level-1 encounter, followed by a run through some hallways and stairways, the pressure was on to keep running when they heard an explosion as it was a sign the enemy was getting close to their destination before they had to be stopped, followed by a level+2 encounter.

I have a party of 6 (level 8), and they have a lot of ways to trigger healing surges (2 people multi-class), the have a shaman who is pretty effective at healing, and had provided regeneration in the third encounter, which ran through the fourth encounter, and they have a paladin who can lay on hands like 4 times. Fighter had come back strike, and numerous people had ways of generating temp hit points. So healing wasn't going to be a problem.

If the players know it's coming, and they can plan for it, it's fun to have back to back encounters without a short rest. But there is nothing worse then using all your encounter powers in an encounter, only to realize there is another one coming before you get a short rest.

I think easy encounters and encounters with minions are the way to go if you're running back to back encounters. And with forewarning, the players can use some long lasting daily powers and stances to great effect, and those extra ways they've been collecting to trigger healing surges for emergencies can play a more significant role.

In a smaller party (like 3 or 4), things can go wrong very easily, so planning back to back encounters would probably be a bit more dangerous than the standard party of 5, or larger 6-7 man parties that have a lot of redundancy.