Balancing fast healing
- Thread starter Cheiromancer
- Start date
dvvega
Explorer
Actually if you look at some of the monsters with fast healing (Mephit for example), Fast Healing only seems to garner a +1 LA / point.
My reasoning follows, please correct if I'm wrong or have been misguided.
Mephit has +3 LA, along with 3 HD it is a +6 creature (if I'm correct on the equivalent level thing here).
It has DR, Fast Healing, Darkvision, Breath Weapon, Spell-Like Abilities, and Summoning
+6 Dex, -4 Int, +4 Cha.
Granted no one is going to play this thing ... however
You could package Darkvision, Spell-Like Abilities, Summoning and part of the ability adjustments (+2 Dex, -2 Int) as a standard race (Spells and Summoning are 1/day - using Gnome as reference point)
Then the extra +4 Dex, -2 Int, +4 Cha would be an LA+2 (maybe +1).
So we've got +4 left.
The breath weapon, although weak, is maybe a +1 LA.
DR 5/magic would be +1 LA at the very least more likely +2 LA
So Fast Healing 2 isn't more than +2 LA.
The bonus hit dice haven't even been included in this ... so it really supports Fast Healing not being that much more than +1 LA / point.
Now looking at a Zelekhut Inevitable +15 (8 hit dice and +7 LA).
DR 10/chaotic, Darkvision, Fast Healing, Low Light Vision, Spell Resistance, +10 STR, +6 WIS, +4 CHA, is a Construct, at will Spell-Like Abilities.
There is no way the Fast Healing accounts for more than about +5 LA here.
My reasoning follows, please correct if I'm wrong or have been misguided.
Mephit has +3 LA, along with 3 HD it is a +6 creature (if I'm correct on the equivalent level thing here).
It has DR, Fast Healing, Darkvision, Breath Weapon, Spell-Like Abilities, and Summoning
+6 Dex, -4 Int, +4 Cha.
Granted no one is going to play this thing ... however
You could package Darkvision, Spell-Like Abilities, Summoning and part of the ability adjustments (+2 Dex, -2 Int) as a standard race (Spells and Summoning are 1/day - using Gnome as reference point)
Then the extra +4 Dex, -2 Int, +4 Cha would be an LA+2 (maybe +1).
So we've got +4 left.
The breath weapon, although weak, is maybe a +1 LA.
DR 5/magic would be +1 LA at the very least more likely +2 LA
So Fast Healing 2 isn't more than +2 LA.
The bonus hit dice haven't even been included in this ... so it really supports Fast Healing not being that much more than +1 LA / point.
Now looking at a Zelekhut Inevitable +15 (8 hit dice and +7 LA).
DR 10/chaotic, Darkvision, Fast Healing, Low Light Vision, Spell Resistance, +10 STR, +6 WIS, +4 CHA, is a Construct, at will Spell-Like Abilities.
There is no way the Fast Healing accounts for more than about +5 LA here.
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Cheiromancer said:
So am I. Compare a Medium Humanoid with no racial traits, Fast Healing 1, and +2 LA with, say... Drow, Githzerai, or Half-Ogre.
It needs something else.
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Cabral said:
I don't know; I think it is definitely more powerful than +1 LA.
If you were to peg it at LA +2, it would have to be coupled with a good bit else, otherwise as a player it wouldn't be worth it to me.
If Cheiromancer, you peg Fast Healing 1 at LA +2, and then say Fast Healing 5 is LA +3, what about anything in between?
Savage Species (not the best guide, but still an official one), lists fast healing up to 3 as LA +1, for every additional 3 or fraction thereof add another +1. Fast Healing 1-3 is +1, 4-6 is +2, 7-9 is +3, 10-12 is +4, and so on. That makes more sense to me and generally seems to be the trend that the books follow when assigning level adjustments except for a few rare horrible listings (feral template).
If Cheiromancer, you peg Fast Healing 1 at LA +2, and then say Fast Healing 5 is LA +3, what about anything in between?
Savage Species (not the best guide, but still an official one), lists fast healing up to 3 as LA +1, for every additional 3 or fraction thereof add another +1. Fast Healing 1-3 is +1, 4-6 is +2, 7-9 is +3, 10-12 is +4, and so on. That makes more sense to me and generally seems to be the trend that the books follow when assigning level adjustments except for a few rare horrible listings (feral template).
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
LA is not the most granular of systems; you can't have an LA of +2.2 to indicate something is a little more powerful than a +2, but not nearly as strong as a +3. It would be nice, but you can't do it.
It seems to me that being able to heal completely between combats is more than a LA +1 adjustment. Maybe it needs to be sweetened a little to be a LA +2 ability, I don't know. If the DM only throws 1 encounter at you per day, then it might be a +1. If you are in combat at least 4 times between rests then unlimited fast healing 1 might be a very solid +2. Equivalent to having an extra cleric around. Since I am proposing a Con penalty to go with fast healing, you will probably need extra benefits. I would prefer to grant extra benefits to make it a reasonable +2 rather than try to sell it as a +1 LA.
Dunno. But I really have my doubts about fast healing 3 being worth only LA +1. Take two identical low level fighters (up to level 6 or so). Advance 1 of them a character level, and give the other one fast healing 3. Put them in a fight to the death against each other. Any doubts about who would win?
In my proposal, you would advance one of the fighters 2 levels, and the other one would get fast healing 3 and -6 to Constitution. I don't think it is at all obvious who would win in that case.
Anyways, like a lot of things from Savage Species, the LA rules for fast healing should be taken with a grain of salt.
It seems to me that being able to heal completely between combats is more than a LA +1 adjustment. Maybe it needs to be sweetened a little to be a LA +2 ability, I don't know. If the DM only throws 1 encounter at you per day, then it might be a +1. If you are in combat at least 4 times between rests then unlimited fast healing 1 might be a very solid +2. Equivalent to having an extra cleric around. Since I am proposing a Con penalty to go with fast healing, you will probably need extra benefits. I would prefer to grant extra benefits to make it a reasonable +2 rather than try to sell it as a +1 LA.
Dunno. But I really have my doubts about fast healing 3 being worth only LA +1. Take two identical low level fighters (up to level 6 or so). Advance 1 of them a character level, and give the other one fast healing 3. Put them in a fight to the death against each other. Any doubts about who would win?
In my proposal, you would advance one of the fighters 2 levels, and the other one would get fast healing 3 and -6 to Constitution. I don't think it is at all obvious who would win in that case.
Anyways, like a lot of things from Savage Species, the LA rules for fast healing should be taken with a grain of salt.
Take two standard NPC fighters from the DMG.
#1 - Normal lvl 6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 49, Atk: +10/+5 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
#2 - Fast Healer lvl 4
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 22, Atk: +8 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
With the -6 Con you'd give alongside fast healing 3, you've basically doomed #2. He's two levels lower and has less than half the number of hit points. He has two less feats, two less HD (thus affected by sleep and other spells which are based on HD), and his saves are noticeably lower, particularly in Fort which is 4 lower than the normal fighter.
Sure, if he survives (not likely at that level), he'll heal up really fast. Pit them against each other and #2 will be down on the average of three hits, while #1 will be hit less, and be able to take twice as much damage.
Not a good trade off.
Let's try LA +1 instead.
#1 - Normal lvl 6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 49, Atk: +10/+5 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
#2 - Fast Healer lvl 5
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 27, Atk: +9 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
Prospects still don't look very good with that Con penalty, he's just over half as many hit points.
Let's ditch the Con penalty and try again, with a LA +2.
#1 - Normal lvl 6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 49, Atk: +10/+5 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
#2 - Fast Healer lvl 4
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 34, Atk: +8 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
So, that's two levels behind in saves, bab, feats, etc. He has 15 less hit points, but fast healing 3, which amounts to basically 5 rounds of healing, although he'll be lucky to last 4 rounds against #1 in average numbers. This seems just around the balancing point for fast healing 3, although I'd say still a touch weak.
General conclusion, fast healing 3 seems just about balanced at LA +2 without any penalties, and might merit a small bonus. Anything below fast healing 3 should probably drop to a +1 LA if no other benefits are given.
The other place to do an analysis would be with the fast healer level 1, and the normal level 3. But I imagine a similar trend would be apparent as the above.
#1 - Normal lvl 6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 49, Atk: +10/+5 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
#2 - Fast Healer lvl 4
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 22, Atk: +8 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
With the -6 Con you'd give alongside fast healing 3, you've basically doomed #2. He's two levels lower and has less than half the number of hit points. He has two less feats, two less HD (thus affected by sleep and other spells which are based on HD), and his saves are noticeably lower, particularly in Fort which is 4 lower than the normal fighter.
Sure, if he survives (not likely at that level), he'll heal up really fast. Pit them against each other and #2 will be down on the average of three hits, while #1 will be hit less, and be able to take twice as much damage.
Not a good trade off.
Let's try LA +1 instead.
#1 - Normal lvl 6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 49, Atk: +10/+5 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
#2 - Fast Healer lvl 5
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 27, Atk: +9 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
Prospects still don't look very good with that Con penalty, he's just over half as many hit points.
Let's ditch the Con penalty and try again, with a LA +2.
#1 - Normal lvl 6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 49, Atk: +10/+5 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
#2 - Fast Healer lvl 4
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HP: 34, Atk: +8 mw greatsword (2d6+4)
So, that's two levels behind in saves, bab, feats, etc. He has 15 less hit points, but fast healing 3, which amounts to basically 5 rounds of healing, although he'll be lucky to last 4 rounds against #1 in average numbers. This seems just around the balancing point for fast healing 3, although I'd say still a touch weak.
General conclusion, fast healing 3 seems just about balanced at LA +2 without any penalties, and might merit a small bonus. Anything below fast healing 3 should probably drop to a +1 LA if no other benefits are given.
The other place to do an analysis would be with the fast healer level 1, and the normal level 3. But I imagine a similar trend would be apparent as the above.
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