Balancing Power Attack

[shurai]

I dont really understand the argument in this thread. What exactly about power attack swapping 2 damage for 1 to hit makes power attack too powerful?

The usual argument goes:

1) 3E had 1-for-1 Power Attack.
2) Lots of people took Power Attack in 3E, and said "awesome" all the time.
3) A lot of people felt that two-handed weapons were too strong.
4) Many people would like to see more than one great choice for fighting style.

Fast forward to 3.5E:

5) 3.5E made Power Attack TWICE as good, but only for already-awesome two-handed fighting.
6) The weaker styles of fighting picked up modest improvements only.

Finally:

7) In math, if X > Y and x > y, then X + x > Y + y.
8) This is what happened with respect to two-handed weapons and power attack, basically.
9) So, big weapons were too powerful in 3E and its worse in 3.5E.
9) QED, more or less.

 

[Draumr]

I agree with the OP that Power Attack skews fighting-style choice in favour of the hard-hitting types vs. the sword & shield approach. As luck would have it I tried the suggested variant in a recent campaign, i.e. doubling AC boost from Combat Expertise if you've got a shield.

The character that went for that option also pumped his AC in some other ways and was well-nigh untouchable, but a lousy damage-dealer. The 2H Power Attacker by comparison dealt massive amounts of damage but also took a fair amount of pain in return. I.e. I would guess that this sort of balanced out...

That being said I think the better option would be to cap both at a 1.5 rate instead.

 

[Meeki]

But what is the issue? So what large weapons do more damage with power attack, as they should especially mass weapons like axes. You lose AC. On top of that melee is fairly weak in the standard D&D game. Sword and board SHOULD be weaker than 2 hander because you have more AC, in higher levels ALOT more AC especially if you can take feats that boost shield bonus.

This argument must be group dependant, my group is fairly restricted on feats compared to the source material available. Other groups may have feats that make power attack and melee into a beast. Based off of the core books the argument seems bunk. I've never had an issue in my group.

 

[shurai]

But what is the issue? So what large weapons do more damage with power attack, as they should especially mass weapons like axes. You lose AC. On top of that melee is fairly weak in the standard D&D game. Sword and board SHOULD be weaker than 2 hander because you have more AC, in higher levels ALOT more AC especially if you can take feats that boost shield bonus.

This argument must be group dependant, my group is fairly restricted on feats compared to the source material available. Other groups may have feats that make power attack and melee into a beast. Based off of the core books the argument seems bunk. I've never had an issue in my group.

Maybe it doesn't come up in your campaign, but it has come up in lots of others. These boards are full of examples. This actually proves the math experimentally, more or less.

Speaking of which, the math on this is very solid; it has been done by lots of folks. We can do it again, though, for fun. : ]

We'll both build human fighters, with the default array of ability scores. Pick a level and money quantity, any should be okay. You build a Fighter that's sword-and-shield. I'll do the same, but zweihander. We'll both use PHB / DMG material only.

 

[Planeswalker Maloran]

Even with Power Attack the way it is, the only style that really suffers is two-weapon fighting. It requires too many feats, and twice as much money to get your weapons as good. Sword + board has the potential for greatly increased AC even without Combat Expertise, because it's a lot cheaper to apply a +2 enhancement to both the shield and the armor, than to apply a +4 to the armor. Sword + board does do a lot less damage, though. I'd say two-weapon fighting and sword+board should both benefit from a 1.5x bonus from Combat Expertise, and a two-handed weapon should only gain a 1.5x bonus from power attack. After all, it only gets 1.5x the Strength bonus, so the 1.5 precedent for two-handed weapons is already there.

 

[Meeki]

Maybe it doesn't come up in your campaign, but it has come up in lots of others. These boards are full of examples. This actually proves the math experimentally, more or less.

Speaking of which, the math on this is very solid; it has been done by lots of folks. We can do it again, though, for fun. : ]

We'll both build human fighters, with the default array of ability scores. Pick a level and money quantity, any should be okay. You build a Fighter that's sword-and-shield. I'll do the same, but zweihander. We'll both use PHB / DMG material only.

And we would do this why? I know that 2 handers do more damage and I have no problem with 2 for 1 trade. People are crying about mechanics of sword and board and TWF (which is terrible) but they want to change how 2 handers work? Thus nerfing the overall effectiveness of melee which is bad enough as it is in high levels.

Change TWF change sword and board. I dont think changing power attack would fix this issue. TWF needs to use less feats or have better feats and really I think shields should give more AC than they do. Is this a perfect solution, no but it doesnt gimp something that isn't over powered as is, IMO.

 

[shurai]

And we would do this why? I know that 2 handers do more damage and I have no problem with 2 for 1 trade. People are crying about mechanics of sword and board and TWF (which is terrible) but they want to change how 2 handers work? Thus nerfing the overall effectiveness of melee which is bad enough as it is in high levels.

I wanted to prove to you that your contention, that a shield-using character is equivalent in overall adventuring effectiveness to a character that uses large weapons, is false, and provably so by that experiment I suggested. It's not just about more damage; instead it's about tradeoffs. I can show systematically that the AC loss is too small for the massive gain in damage; lots of people have done so already.

If you think melee generally is too weak, that's a different argument and I'm not sure I know enough to really participate. I have heard that, for example, archery is too strong, even stronger than large weapons. Is this true, and is there any other evidence about melee's weakness?

Change TWF change sword and board. I dont think changing power attack would fix this issue. TWF needs to use less feats or have better feats and really I think shields should give more AC than they do. Is this a perfect solution, no but it doesnt gimp something that isn't over powered as is, IMO.

I agree actually that de-revising Power Attack wouldn't really fix it, because if you'll notice, I already said I believed large weapons were too good even in Edition 3.0. : ]

Anyway, I agree with the other changes too, that TWF is too expensive in feats and that shields aren't effective enough generally.

 

[Arkhandus]

Anyway, Animated shields make the choice of sword-and-board rather pointless, since a greatsword-wielder can still have an Animated shield. Which is annoying, cuz I like the classic sword-and-boarder.

 

[airwalkrr]

After many years of searching and thinking up different solutions, I finally came up with the perfect silver bullet solution to Power Attack. You might like it.

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: When making a melee attack on your turn, you can take a penalty of –5 on your attack roll and double the damage dice of the weapon you are using. Use of this feat does not double damage from any other source, such as your Strength modifier or the bonus damage from an energy weapon.
If you have the ability to make more than one attack per round, you may choose to use this feat for only one attack, some of the attacks, or all the attacks, but you must declare whether you are using it before you make each attack roll.
You cannot use this feat when taking attacks of opportunity.
Special: The bonus damage dice from Power Attack are not multiplied on a critical hit. If you score a critical hit while using this feat, calculate the damage normally, then roll the extra dice granted by Power Attack and add it to the total.

 

[comrade raoul]

After many years of searching and thinking up different solutions, I finally came up with the perfect silver bullet solution to Power Attack. You might like it.

Yep. That REALLY IS completely perfect, actually.