Balancing Two-Weapon fighting

[Zarrok]

My bad. By s.t.s. I mean so to speak. I know the Conan rpg changed two-weapon fighting to what it is above, and yet the thief in Conan gets full sneak attack progression.

We cap number of attacks at 12. You have to have 4 feats, be level 16+ and include tome of battle (which we do).

I appreciate the comments! I like to weigh the pros and cons as much as I can.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

How much does obtaining pounce with a simple level 1 dip in Barbarian do to equalize TWF with THF?

I have ITWF and GTWF both reduce the penalties by 1 (so you end up with none if the offhand is light or you have Oversized TWF) and have Oversized TWF let you add full str to the offhand and Power Attack add +1 damage per point of penalty (and changed it so even a light offhand weapon gets +1 damage per 2 points of attack penalty, so it's not just literally useless, albeit not a great deal). I also made Two Weapon Defense a single feat that scales the shield bonus to the # of off hand attacks you get via the feats (so +3 AC with GTWF, +6 if fighting defensively).

Probably not enough to close the gap, but I think it catches it up a bit at least. I don't really like making TWF feat itself much stronger, it's already a pretty strong feat when you look at how much it's reducing the penalties, and the hidden benefit of drawing two weapons as part of moving, IMO. But boosting the other feats in the tree I'm all for.

 

[Zarrok]

How much does obtaining pounce with a simple level 1 dip in Barbarian do to equalize TWF with THF?

I have ITWF and GTWF both reduce the penalties by 1 (so you end up with none if the offhand is light or you have Oversized TWF) and have Oversized TWF let you add full str to the offhand and Power Attack add +1 damage per point of penalty (and changed it so even a light offhand weapon gets +1 damage per 2 points of attack penalty, so it's not just literally useless, albeit not a great deal). I also made Two Weapon Defense a single feat that scales the shield bonus to the # of off hand attacks you get via the feats (so +3 AC with GTWF, +6 if fighting defensively).

Probably not enough to close the gap, but I think it catches it up a bit at least. I don't really like making TWF feat itself much stronger, it's already a pretty strong feat when you look at how much it's reducing the penalties, and the hidden benefit of drawing two weapons as part of moving, IMO. But boosting the other feats in the tree I'm all for.

I must admit the ability to move and get two attacks early does sway me some.

One of the major problems it seems with TWF is its very feat intensive with not enough payback. I've seen more than a few characters die (only one was mine) because of the pursuit of this chain at the cost of other feats. My thoughts have been to go with THF until its safer to take TWF at later levels. Unless I can get full str to the offhand with a feat and Oversized TWF as another feat I would never pursue TWF. But its to cool not to at least make one character with it!

So lets say a TWF feat that reduces the penalties to +0 vs. THF with power attack. Verdict?

Without changing the feats as you did above. What would you say to this?

Any feat you take that has TWF as a prerequisite lets you reduce the penalty by 1, but never below 0.

One extra attack at full b.a.b. I like! Two more extra attacks at -5 and -10 a the cost of two extra feats not so much.

 

[Andras]

Or just cast Girralon's Blessing and you can THF with the primary, TWF with a secondary, and S&B with the 4th hand. Also had OvSzTWF, used large DwWarAxes and 6d6 SA per attack.

 

[Arrowhawk]

I must admit the ability to move and get two attacks early does sway me some.

And this is the problem when you start changing feats and costs and penalties. Suddenly you have a combo that goes from optional to no-brainer. You don't want something to be so good that a player perceives it as a penalty for not doing it (thought I know D&D has tons of things like this). Whether something crosses that line is still arguably subjective, but the math shouldn't be able to show one choice as universally superior.

One of the major problems it seems with TWF is its very feat intensive with not enough payback.

This is a fairly unavoidable conclusion and one I agree with. I think the answer has been hidden in various responses above..

Perhaps damage output should not be your goal?

I think if you really want to "fix" TWF, on approach is to say that it should be better at defense than THF and better at damage than S&B...for the same amount of feats. Another way to put it, TWF should be better than others in some areas and worse than others in other areas. Modern game design theory says all choices should be equally effective but provide a different play style. D&D isn't based on this theory, but then it seems irresponsible to let players make choices that appeal to us as individuals and then penalize us for it, doesn't it?

But again, you have to look at what happens at the extreme. What happens when someone uses it in a cheese build? I think this more than anything may explain why TWF was so heavily penalized. A high level Rogue with Improved Crit, Weapon Finesse couple with Keen Elemental Anarchaic and Axiomatic weapon plus a ton of spell caster bonuses may present playability problems. It's not about playability for the average, but what happens at the extreme.

 

[Tilenas]

Anybody ever think of nerfing THF instead? To me, it's the single build that has S/B, TWF, ranged (God forbid) eat its dust. Or is this out of the question because of fighters vs. casters?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Or is this out of the question because of fighters vs. casters?

This, I think. THF is the only build that seems to consistently prove valuable at all in combat compared to spellcasters, it seems wrong to nerf the only fighting style that so unanimously seems to "work." It's always seemed to me to be more of a problem of the other styles being too weak, not vice versa.

I am glad you mentioned other impoverished combat styles, though. People focus so much on TWF and Sword and Board; unarmed combat, ranged combat, and (gods help you) one handed weapon (ie, fencing style) combat are even worse and don't get nearly enough pity.

 

[Zarrok]

I think if you really want to "fix" TWF, on approach is to say that it should be better at defense than THF and better at damage than S&B...for the same amount of feats. Another way to put it, TWF should be better than others in some areas and worse than others in other areas. Modern game design theory says all choices should be equally effective but provide a different play style. D&D isn't based on this theory, but then it seems irresponsible to let players make choices that appeal to us as individuals and then penalize us for it, doesn't it?

Care to propose any feat changes?

But again, you have to look at what happens at the extreme. What happens when someone uses it in a cheese build? I think this more than anything may explain why TWF was so heavily penalized. A high level Rogue with Improved Crit, Weapon Finesse couple with Keen Elemental Anarchaic and Axiomatic weapon plus a ton of spell caster bonuses may present playability problems. It's not about playability for the average, but what happens at the extreme.

If its that bad wouldn't the -2 be a drop in the bucket? Or is it every little bit that counts?

How about just nerfing/cutting the o.p. garbage?

 

[Zarrok]

This, I think. THF is the only build that seems to consistently prove valuable at all in combat compared to spellcasters, it seems wrong to nerf the only fighting style that so unanimously seems to "work." It's always seemed to me to be more of a problem of the other styles being too weak, not vice versa.

I am glad you mentioned other impoverished combat styles, though. People focus so much on TWF and Sword and Board; unarmed combat, ranged combat, and (gods help you) one handed weapon (ie, fencing style) combat are even worse and don't get nearly enough pity.

Poor one handed, the pain. Why? WhY?

Here's another proposal. Say I want one extra attack with a one handed weapon in my off hand at full b.a.b. full strength mod. Is it worth 3 feats and not o.p.?

 

[Arrowhawk]

Care to propose any feat changes?

It would be irresponsible for me to suggest changes. My knowledge of all the related or affected feats/builds is paltry compared to some. I'm just trying to get you to think about the problem on a wholistic level (problems that this may introduces) rather than a very localized one (how does this solve my personal issue). It's just like agreeing to use new classes or new feats from various supplements. You may be so focused on what you get, you may not see that you've opened Pandora's Box.

If its that bad wouldn't the -2 be a drop in the bucket? Or is it every little bit that counts?

.

A valid question. It's one that gets asked a lot in MMO's. That answer is that it depends on the context. Consider this: If a certain build needs a 19 to hit, removing that -2 means you've just doubled the expected damage. If they hit on a 2 or better, than the removing that -2 isn't helping at all is it?

Consider another example...a character with weapons that due ability damage or have status effects. If we just consider the damage output of removing that -2, we'd only see a 10% increase of the expected damage. If every successful hit lowers the targets Constitution...then the +2 modifier is a much bigger deal than the expected damage isn't it?

And once you start looking at doing increased stat damage or adding status modifiers to weapon hits, suddenly it's harder to compare the -2 benefit in terms of just damage. For example, if you had a choice of TWF with weapons that do Con damage or THF with a weapon that does Con damage...which would you prefer? Depends doesn't it?

The difficulty in answering these questions is probably why there is no "fix" for TWF or other styles. I'm going to repeat what I said above, if you really want to make TWF "viable" give it something that makes it unique and useful...don't try to make it the same as others or more powerful. You like TWF because of the play-style, so add a change that enhances that style of play without treading on the toes of other styles. The THF should always do more damage...you just should be able to say, "Yes, but I can do X and you can't." And then there should be no easy answer as to which is more important, X or more damage.

Let me leave you with a thought:

You can't fix the game...you can only change it.