Balancing Vow of Poverty at 18th level

[Stalker0]

So my group is considering playing a one shot adventure. Each of us will take our favorite character from past games, remake them as 18th level and go.

My favorite is an oathsworn, which is very similar to a monk. His schtick has always been very self oriented, not relying on tools, equipment, or magic. The vow of poverty seems a great way to model this.

I've heard in general that VOP is very useful for monks up into the mid levels, but once you get to high levels the benefits don't equal magic. So I'd like to bump it up a bit to balance it with the rest of the group.

First off, as an oathsworn I already do not need to eat, drink, or breathe, and I'm already highly resistant to environmental effects, so all of those abilities are worthless to me.

Here's what I'm thinking:
1) No vow feats needed. I'll add on the vow abilities as a "template" to my character.
2) Change regeneration -> fast healing 1. Not that strong at 18th level but its a cool ability to have and fits his self sufficient schtick.
3) Maybe allow some of the exalted bonus feats to be traded in for regular ones.
4) Allow the exalted bonus to AC to apply to touch attacks.
5) Bump up the ability bonuses. Maybe 8/8/6/4.

What do you all think?

 

[Artoomis]

I think you'll find a monk-like characters with Vow of Poverty are competitive with others, even at 18th level. No adjustments are really needed.

I ran one, and had great fun and never felt handicapped. Mostly, I had fewer choices because of not choosing amongst various equiment options.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But this isn't an actual monk, it's an Oathsworn, which get several abilities that just plain overlap with VoP. I assume this group is allowing mixing of AE and D&D? I never understood how that could ever work. AE's assumption that "belt of str +2" belts don't exist, D&D's more powerful spells, etc... I have to ask, that you can take VoP at all, your DM allows you to mix feats from both? Or are the AE feats just not allowed, and you'd have to play an unbound?

1) Maybe. Don't you already start with an extra feat over normal D&D characters anyway?
2) Wands of Lesser Vigor are a joke expense at this level. Seems fine.
3) Or make new, actually useful exalted feats, that don't require that ridiculous cha 15 like a bunch of the monk ones do. One group I was in made up two: Piety - Lets you use Wis instead of Cha to qualify for exalted feats; Thoughtweave - Enables short ranged telepathy with others who have the feat. Your group could probably make up some more, including one or two tied to Oathsworn abilities.
4) I don't know about that... Maybe as an exalted feat, kind of like Shield Ward?
5) I think the nromal boosts are fine, although you can't cover all 6 abilities, so maybe branch out rather than up.

I will say, from both theoretical analysis and in game experience, the ability to fly would seem the most important high level add-in to me. Against well prepared foes, ahigh level melee guy w/o that ability is hosed--and you don't have the luxury of just buying winged boots.

 

[Slaved]

Finding ways to use the Exalted Feats that are neither too Strong or too Weak would be the Key!!

Maybe you could spend the Exalted Feats to gain Abilities like the Warlock Invocations and Draconic Auras? Select Balanced Options and everything should work out Good!!

 

[Stalker0]

But this isn't an actual monk, it's an Oathsworn, which get several abilities that just plain overlap with VoP. I assume this group is allowing mixing of AE and D&D? I never understood how that could ever work. AE's assumption that "belt of str +2" belts don't exist, D&D's more powerful spells, etc... I have to ask, that you can take VoP at all, your DM allows you to mix feats from both? Or are the AE feats just not allowed, and you'd have to play an unbound?

The oathsworn is the only AE part of the game we play. Standard 3.5 equipment, standard 3.5 spells, standard 3.5 feats. So I don't get talents and extra feats and all of that. I do get the combat rites I normally get, but I couldn't take ritual combat for example.

 

[Zelc]

You want at least two things with the feat that items would otherwise grant you: the ability to fly and the ability to deal with different types of DR. There's also other nifty things magic items can provide you that VoP cannot.

I'd actually consider allowing the feat to provide you with one Item of Legacy (robes, perhaps?) without the associated penalties and XP costs. In exchange for the 6th, 10th, and 14th level bonus feats, add the Least Legacy, Lesser Legacy, and Greater Legacy feats. Exactly how you'd address the Weapon Enhancement, Armor Enhancement, and the deflection and resistance bonus effects would be up to your DM. This probably isn't perfect, but I don't think it'd be too powerful.

 

[Stalker0]

You want at least two things with the feat that items would otherwise grant you: the ability to fly and the ability to deal with different types of DR. There's also other nifty things magic items can provide you that VoP cannot.

One advantage of the oathsworn is it has DR negating class abilities. I reduce any DR I encounter by 18 at my level, so DR isn't usually a problem.

As for fly, my dm ruled a while back that because my jump is so high, he would allow an epic use of it, a "space jump". Think Samus in metroid 3 So while I'm not really flying, I can't full attack in midair for example, I can reach flying targets.

 

[Artoomis]

Another thing to consider is the Saint template. It's LA+2, but there are rules in some book or other (I don't recall which ) or dealing with that, as LA becomes less relevant at high levels and you can "buy off" the LA, I think. That's all kind of fuzzy and I don't remember how it works, exactly.

Also, you can benefit from spells cast on you, so flying may be possible, just not from your own items. Still, this does not seem to be a serious issue for your character.

If you and you DM agree that, in your case, Vow of Poverty leaves you behind you other party member, a "free" Saint template seems like the most apporpriate fix to me.

Gain "native outsider" type, insight bonus to AC equal to Wisdom bonus, Save DC vs. your magic/"ex" attcks if any, goes up by +2, melee attack damage vs. evil goes up and they take holy damage if they hit you with a natural weapon, 4 spell-like abilities, +2 Con, +2 Wis and +4 Cha, DR 5/magic, and 10/evil, Fast Healing 9 (half your hit die), immunity to acid, cold, electricity and pertrification,low light vision and 60' darkvision (but you'll have True Sight from the Vow anyway), 2x strength magic circle against evil, lesser globe of invulnerability (both at 18th level), Fire resistance 10 and +4 Fort vs. poison plus and always-on Tongues.

All in all, sounds like a good way to go to me, and better than trying to figure out modifications to the Vow.