Balls of light with anatomy

[Quasqueton]

An interesting concept came up in our past game session:

A will 'o wisp can be sneak attacked. As can a lantern archon.

Just a little thing to get a chuckle.

Quasqueton

 

[Crothian]

This seems like the perfect chance to write a small but detailed pdf on the anotamy of these beings. That'd be a big seller!!

 

[RangerWickett]

Whereas I chuckle for another reason, because I let everything be affected by critical hits and sneak attacks. A rogue that catches a creature off guard can cut off something vital, whereas a normal swing might just slash the critter. So a sneak attack on a will-o-the-wisp might just be a really good, full-on stab, as opposed to a glancing blow.

 

[James McMurray]

RW, Even undead and constructs?

 

[Saeviomagy]

RW, Even undead and constructs?

The only thing that I can think of in D&D which would genuinely have no weak spots is a gelatinous cube. Any other critter, even other types of ooze, has some part of their body which will be thinner than another, and therefore easier to hack off.

Is there honestly no effect to removing a skeleton's leg at the knee? Or chopping off an entire pseudopod from an ooze?

 

[James McMurray]

Because of D&D's lack of a hit location system, you can't actually hack off a leg from a skeleton or a pseudopod from an ooze. I'm not saying its realistic, its just the way the rules work. For a more realistic combat system look into Rolemaster, where undead and oozes have crit reduction instead of crit immunity.

 

[Conaill]

Because of D&D's lack of a hit location system, you can't actually hack off a leg from a skeleton or a pseudopod from an ooze.

That argument is rather irrelevent, because this is exactly what sneak attack is trying to model, i.e. an attack on an unspecified but more vulnerable location. So why can't a Rogue do a sneak attack on, say, a construct with a regonizeable anatomy, but he *can* sneak attack some crazy aberration from the 7th layer of hell with a discernable but unrecognizeable anatomy?

PS: I think the will 'o wisp and lantern archon would fall under "no discernable anatomy", so no sneak attack for you... at least that part makes sense...

 

[kigmatzomat]

That argument is rather irrelevent, because this is exactly what sneak attack is trying to model, i.e. an attack on an unspecified but more vulnerable location. So why can't a Rogue do a sneak attack on, say, a construct with a regonizeable anatomy, but he *can* sneak attack some crazy aberration from the 7th layer of hell with a discernable but unrecognizeable anatomy?

The theory is that a construct has no "anatomy" in the sense it has no parts; it's generally a heterogeneous mass maneuvered by magic. Undead have "parts" but they are held together and operated by magic forces, hence the parts are irrelevant as long as they are present.

Here's a comparison: a rogue cuts a human's achille's tendon. He's just lost most of the mobility in one leg from a rather shallow cut, less than 1/2" deep and 2" wide.

The rogue makes the same attack on a zombie and a skeleton. The skeleton's tendons are just hanging there, if even present, so he really just nicks the bone. The zombie's tendon snaps but the muscles aren't driving the body's motion so it's loss is irrelevant.

The rogue then cuts a stone golem's leg. Since the leg isn't severed, it continues to function with no loss in mobility under the magical forces that animate it.

Suddenly, a demon pops in. The rogue, apparently a ground-hugging sneak, slashes at the flexible spot on the back of a joint on the leg. While not necessarily the achille's tendon equivalent, it still seriously inhibits the demon's mobility as the leg's function is degraded far in excess of the raw damage dealt.

A nominal rule is that all creatures with functioning internal organs and musculature have some general weak points: the inner side of joints (i.e. elbows, knees, armpit, groin, wrist, ankle, neck), and sensory organs. This holds for vertebrates and invertabrates in most cases.

Ooozes and the like have self-sealing membranes and are pretty darned hard to sever as the material will reabsorb if it comes in contact with itself. Puddings are nasty since all you do is create a smaller blob to help flank you.

 

[Conaill]

The theory is that a construct has no "anatomy" in the sense it has no parts; it's generally a heterogeneous mass maneuvered by magic.

You and I must have very different opinions about what a construct looks like then. Firstly, there's nothing that says a construct *has* to be magical. "A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature." A clockwork creation for example would most definitely have individual parts - in fact, it's the epitome of "partness". And any fool (i.e. rogue) could figure out that sticking a knife into the internal gearwork or blocking a knee joint would do more damage than wailing away at it's outside armor plates.

Secondly, have a look at the illustrations for constructs in the MM. The Golems for example are all very antropomorphic. Their anatomy sure seems very "discernable" to me.

A nominal rule is that all creatures with functioning internal organs and musculature have some general weak points: the inner side of joints (i.e. elbows, knees, armpit, groin, wrist, ankle, neck), and sensory organs. This holds for vertebrates and invertabrates in most cases.

Ooozes and the like have self-sealing membranes and are pretty darned hard to sever as the material will reabsorb if it comes in contact with itself. Puddings are nasty since all you do is create a smaller blob to help flank you.

So how about, say, the Chaos Beast with its "mutable, ever-changing form", or the Mimic which most of the time looks like an animated object anyway? I'd say neither of those should be subject to sneak attacks either (same as the will'o wisp or lantern archon), but a clockwork creature definitely should.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You can deny sneak attack on Will'o'Wisp based on the description of the ability :

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—

Will'o'Wisp fall in the category of "no discernible anatomies".

While we're talking about sneak attacks:

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

The concealment part is straight forward, but the thing about vitals out of reach is less so. What is out of reach?

But basically, that means a DM is withing his right to forbid a halfling to sneak attack an Ogre using a short sword, or a human trying to do the same to a Storm Giant. Unless of course they have gobbed a potion of flying

But bottom line, there's quite a few situation where Sneak attack can be denied if you read the entry carefully.