Balls of light with anatomy

[Saeviomagy]

Here's a comparison: a rogue cuts a human's achille's tendon. He's just lost most of the mobility in one leg from a rather shallow cut, less than 1/2" deep and 2" wide.

The rogue makes the same attack on a zombie and a skeleton. The skeleton's tendons are just hanging there, if even present, so he really just nicks the bone. The zombie's tendon snaps but the muscles aren't driving the body's motion so it's loss is irrelevant.

And if he removes the skeleton's leg at the knee? No difference in performance??

The zombie's resilience is reflected in the number of hitpoints it has.

The rogue then cuts a stone golem's leg. Since the leg isn't severed, it continues to function with no loss in mobility under the magical forces that animate it.

Which is a function of the hitpoints of the golem, not it's immunity to critical hits.

What you're trying to say is that cutting halfway through the golems leg has the same effect as cutting a small portion of the way through it's body. I don't think that's true.

What if the leg IS severed? Surely that should be a possible effect of a sneak attacK?

Suddenly, a demon pops in. The rogue, apparently a ground-hugging sneak, slashes at the flexible spot on the back of a joint on the leg. While not necessarily the achille's tendon equivalent, it still seriously inhibits the demon's mobility as the leg's function is degraded far in excess of the raw damage dealt.

Now let's have him do the same to a cloaker.

 

[andargor]

And if he removes the skeleton's leg at the knee? No difference in performance??

Pandora would love this one. Are you saying that a human fighter that is sneak attacked can have his leg cut off at the knee?

I vote for simplification of rules, since this is D&D and not GURPS or Rolemaster (both of which I enjoy as well, as a different style of playing).

Andargor

 

[demiurge1138]

Personally, I think it makes sense to define a sneak attack as one that can hit a vulnerable organ. Undead are animated by magic and have no need for organs. Constructs are animated by magic, and have no organs to have need of (yes, I do realize that clockworks count as constructs and have moving parts, which is why I'd consider a fortification-style ability for them rather than sneak attack immunity). Since a will-o-wisp does have organs somewhere in there, I'd rule that you could sneak attack one. Maybe a Knowledge: dungeoneering or arcana or whatever aberrations fall under chekc would be needed to determine where those organs are, but I'd allow it.

Demiurge out.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You can deny sneak attack on Will'o'Wisp based on the description of the ability :

Mal, you used the wrong tag for your quotes (PHP tag) which is stretching the page all out of shape. Any chance of editing that?

Cheers

 

[kigmatzomat]

And if he removes the skeleton's leg at the knee? No difference in performance??

First, DnD has no rules, other than vorpal, for limb loss. There's no set mechanic for stabbing out eyes, cutting off fingers, or severing a limb. Matter of fact, DnD has completely abstracted everything. If you want to sever the leg of a skeleton with raw damage feel free, but that's a house rule.

Second, You missed the part where I covered that:

Undead have "parts" but they are held together and operated by magic forces, hence the parts are irrelevant as long as they are present.

[/quote]
What you're trying to say is that cutting halfway through the golems leg has the same effect as cutting a small portion of the way through it's body. I don't think that's true.
[/quote]

Nope, you're misunderstanding me. I never said to cut halfway through the golem's leg; I said make an attack comparable to severing a foes achilles tendon. The achilles tendon runs along the back of the leg down to the ankle. Cutting it can be done with a cut less than 1" deep and 2" across. Doing so causes the foot to become useless, almost immobilizing the target. As such it is a perfect example to me of a sneak attack as it is an incredible amount of "damage" for such a small wound.

What if the leg IS severed? Surely that should be a possible effect of a sneak attacK?

Again, that's a house rule. Matter of fact, it's also circular. "I can inflict a critical hit because I can cut its leg off and I can cut its leg off with a critical hit."

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

*sorry about the tag*

Construct and Undead are immune to criticals. It's part of their CR. Sneak/critical attack an Undead and he'll die soon.

If you wanna houserule that they can be sneaked (and presumably criticaled), you better give him a constitution score to compensate.

 

[Plane Sailing]

First, DnD has no rules, other than vorpal, for limb loss. There's no set mechanic for stabbing out eyes, cutting off fingers, or severing a limb. Matter of fact, DnD has completely abstracted everything. If you want to sever the leg of a skeleton with raw damage feel free, but that's a house rule.

Although bizarrely, they have a mechanic for fixing severed limbs (the regeneration spell). How strange is that, eh?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Pandora would love this one. Are you saying that a human fighter that is sneak attacked can have his leg cut off at the knee?

I vote for simplification of rules, since this is D&D and not GURPS or Rolemaster (both of which I enjoy as well, as a different style of playing).

Andargor

First, DnD has no rules, other than vorpal, for limb loss. There's no set mechanic for stabbing out eyes, cutting off fingers, or severing a limb. Matter of fact, DnD has completely abstracted everything. If you want to sever the leg of a skeleton with raw damage feel free, but that's a house rule.

Sure it does - if you lose all your hps to a sneak attack, something you need is no longer functioning. In a human being, that could be a leg, an arm, a major artery or an organ.

In an undead, it could be any number of vulnerable joints which are no longer held together and protected by soft fleshy bits.

Second, You missed the part where I covered that:

Undead have "parts" but they are held together and operated by magic forces, hence the parts are irrelevant as long as they are present.

Ahhh. The famous "but it's magic" defense. Fair enough if that's the reason you want to give.

Nope, you're misunderstanding me. I never said to cut halfway through the golem's leg; I said make an attack comparable to severing a foes achilles tendon. The achilles tendon runs along the back of the leg down to the ankle. Cutting it can be done with a cut less than 1" deep and 2" across. Doing so causes the foot to become useless, almost immobilizing the target. As such it is a perfect example to me of a sneak attack as it is an incredible amount of "damage" for such a small wound.

And golems have comparable locations. It's just you have to be THAT much better at your job, because a golem has far more hitpoints than a peasant.

Again, that's a house rule. Matter of fact, it's also circular. "I can inflict a critical hit because I can cut its leg off and I can cut its leg off with a critical hit."

How's that a circular argument?

If a creature can be affected by damage to a restricted location, then it should be affected by critical hits and sneak attacks, which are the game-rule representation of that particular effect.

 

[UltimaGabe]

The only problem that I see with the idea of Sneak Attacks being strikes to vulnerable areas arises at higher levels. For example, think of a 20th-level Rogue doing 10d6 points of damage with a sneak attack. Are we to believe that this possible 60 points of damage comes purely from striking a vital organ? A rogue is able to do enough damage to kill 15 commoners simply by stabbing his target in a vital area? I mean, vital areas are vital areas- so unless Hit Points and Damage are all supposed to be completely relative things (which would mean that a Longsword would have to do different amounts of damage to every target, depending on who you're fighting) then there's no way that simply striking a vital area is able to do that much damage.

One of the DMs in my group eventually gave up trying to rationalize the "striking vital areas" idea, and declared that our rogue (who, thanks to the Bloodfang Dagger from Relics & Rituals, was doing 10d10 with every attack) was simply throwing them supernaturally hard. So rather than a vital organ being struck, the person's chest just exploded. As a result, anytime she missed, the wall behind her target exploded. There really isn't any other way to rationalize 100 points of damage simply from striking a vital organ.

 

[Rozman]

Again, that's a house rule. Matter of fact, it's also circular. "I can inflict a critical hit because I can cut its leg off and I can cut its leg off with a critical hit.

How's that a circular argument?

If a creature can be affected by damage to a restricted location, then it should be affected by critical hits and sneak attacks, which are the game-rule representation of that particular effect.

It's circular the same way the "NO crits/SA on undead/constructs/etc." is.

The abstracted combat mechanics don't support any targeted/area-specific damage dealing (aside from the Vorpal ability.) A critical hits a non-specified "vital area." A creature immune to criticals & SA has no "vital areas" you can damage with weapons in combat. You can't cut the leg off the zombie because the mechanics don't permit it.

The HP/damage relationship in d20 is based upon the creature receiving the damage, not the blow you dealt the creature. A 10 HP blow is a very different thing to a commoner, a 4th level Fighter and a 20th level Fighter. This forces the argument into circularity in each direction.

But as Mal Malenkirk mentioned above, it's built into their CR. Critters immune to crits tend not to be the kind of thing that goes unconscious in the first place, so perhaps the blow that put them below 0 HP is the one that took its leg off.

I can actually go either way with this one, but by the book is simpler. I don't think it's worth deciding which creature's CR's should actually be affected by allowing crits upon them. Also crits & SA (well, sometimes SA) aren't based on player ingenuity, so I don't see much reason to go above and beyond to reward them.

............

Now, say someone wants to Stone Shape that Stone Golem's legs back up into its body. How do the mechanics work with that?