D&D 3E/3.5 Barbarian Rage, or whirling Frenzy 3.5 advice

[StreamOfTheSky]

I find Whirling Frenzy to be slightly better, but I really don't care, it's not like Barbarians are overpowered, evn with Whirling Frenzy and Pounce. And as Dandu noted in his awesome handbook (making me want to try out some sort of dwarf deepwarden/bear warrior/warshaper now), it actually makes a barbarian archer viable, which is great.

I agree with all of Dandu's arguments in this thread, I'll just add a small note: Normal Rage also gives +2 fortitude saves because of the con, along with the extra hp and longer rage duration. Minor? Sure. Still something being overlooked in the comparisons.

I guess I will disagree with people saying extra rage duration doesn't matter (which...includes Dandu). Am I the only one who's commonly experienced long combats? Maybe there's lots of enemies, maybe they come in waves instead of all at once. Maybe the BBEG has Combat Expertise and the like and is hard to hit. Maybe he's smart enough to use delaying tactics like battlefield control spells, magical defenses like blink, time hop out for a few rounds, etc... to waste away the durations of rage along with short duration buff spells. Am I seriously the only person here that ever experiences/uses (when I'm DM) ANY of this? A few extra rounds of rage can definitely be helpful, IMO. Even if you can get rid of the fatigue afterwards and not be REALLY weakened, you still cannot enter rage again the rest of that combat. Not ever. No matter what.

 

[Dandu]

I find Whirling Frenzy to be slightly better, but I really don't care, it's not like Barbarians are overpowered, evn with Whirling Frenzy and Pounce. And as Dandu noted in his awesome handbook (making me want to try out some sort of dwarf deepwarden/bear warrior/warshaper now), it actually makes a barbarian archer viable, which is great.

Eldariel worked on that section, I must point out.

I guess I will disagree with people saying extra rage duration doesn't matter (which...includes Dandu).

I think it does matter, as explained in my antepenultimate post.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You mention the shorter duration, but at the same time in your handbook in numerous places you emphasize that everything will be dead before your rage ends anyway, so things that reduce or extend the duration don't matter.

 

[Dandu]

I also spend several sections talking about how masculine elves are and the benefits of Power Thirst and Brawndo.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I also spend several sections talking about how masculine elves are and the benefits of Power Thirst and Brawndo.

Fair enough.

In defense of Elves, though, Wood Elves are good.

 

[Persiflage]

I think whether standard Rage or Whirling Frenzy is "better" very much depends on the overall game setup. In the majority of games I've been playing or DM'ing in the last couple of years, the consensus has been that "Rage is better". This is largely due to: the longer duration of Rage (yes, StreamOfTheSky, we too experience "rage expiry"); the boost to hp, Fortitude and Will saves; and finally the fact that it's rare for our melee monsters to get multiple rounds of full attacks, so the extra attack is - more often than not - failing to come into play.

In another group I've played with less frequently, the combats tend to be... ahem... more "straightforward": which is to say, "the DM dumps a pile of appropriately-CR'd creatures into a room and we go in and kill them". I built a character that had Whirling Frenzy for that game and got deep joy from it

So, it's a bit situational.

A final note on comparative strengths though: I realise that this is subjective, but my opinion is that a boost to either Will or Fortitude saves (let alone both) is superior to a boost to Reflex saves, particularly for a character with a big pile of hit points. The effects of failing Will and Fort saves are, in general, much more severe than Reflex saves, the latter of which tend towards "take some d6 damage" (and yes, there are notable exceptions) whilst the former two tend towards "lose the ability to take one or more types of action" or even "kill the rest of the party".

 

[Particle_Man]

I would favour Whirling Frenzy just from a pc management point of view, so I don't have to keep track of hit points that aren't. If I have only my real hit points to keep track of, I have a better sense of how my character is doing, and am less likely to get that character killed.

 

[spiderfate]

that pretty much covers it. thank you all for giving me the pros and cons in such a well thought out manner.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think whether standard Rage or Whirling Frenzy is "better" very much depends on the overall game setup. In the majority of games I've been playing or DM'ing in the last couple of years, the consensus has been that "Rage is better". This is largely due to: the longer duration of Rage (yes, StreamOfTheSky, we too experience "rage expiry"); the boost to hp, Fortitude and Will saves; and finally the fact that it's rare for our melee monsters to get multiple rounds of full attacks, so the extra attack is - more often than not - failing to come into play.

In another group I've played with less frequently, the combats tend to be... ahem... more "straightforward": which is to say, "the DM dumps a pile of appropriately-CR'd creatures into a room and we go in and kill them". I built a character that had Whirling Frenzy for that game and got deep joy from it

So, it's a bit situational.

A final note on comparative strengths though: I realise that this is subjective, but my opinion is that a boost to either Will or Fortitude saves (let alone both) is superior to a boost to Reflex saves, particularly for a character with a big pile of hit points. The effects of failing Will and Fort saves are, in general, much more severe than Reflex saves, the latter of which tend towards "take some d6 damage" (and yes, there are notable exceptions) whilst the former two tend towards "lose the ability to take one or more types of action" or even "kill the rest of the party".

Good points, the save bonuses of regular rage are absolutely better. I do think part of what causes most to consider Whirling Frenzy better is the existence of Spirit Lion Totem in C.Champion. Without pounce, whirling frenzy may very well be worse than normal rage in most cases (aside from archer barb, which is a really atypical build to begin with). But the two synergize very nicely. I don't think to the point of being broke nor overpowered, but...the two variants definitely belong together.

 

[Herobizkit]

I also spend several sections talking about how masculine elves are and the benefits of Power Thirst and Brawndo.

I'd +1 XP for the Power Thirst ref if I could, but I already prop'd you in another thread. Or this one. I don't remember.

I don't have much to say by way of comparison, but as a general rule, +1 attack is better for a warrior than just about anything else. I played a Gnoll Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy ability with much love and abandon.