Bard Variants?

[der_kluge]

I've just rolled up my first Bard in a long, long time. Last Bard was a second edition Bard, and I think I played him in one game.

But, my concern is this - at first glance, the Bard class seems weak. 4 skill points per level, poor spell progression, sorcerer spell limitation, poor combat skills. About the only thing that's powerful are some of their songs, but at first level, I can only do those once a day. And then some of them only last a round per level. Not sure what good a 1 round 'fascinate' is going to do me.

But, I've been thinking about the Bard, and having magical effects based around music makes no sense to me. There's no justification for it. Firstly, if the magic comes from the music, there shouldn't be any limitations to the number of times per day that they can use it. What causes the magic to become lost after you do it a number of times equal to your level? Why should my second performance as a 1st level Bard be any less significant?

Actually, I'd prefer to just toss out the musical aspect in favor of better magical progression based on wizard ability, and more skill points per level, with access to the same variety of skills that they currently have.

So, I guess what I'm asking is whether anyone has seen a variant Bard like this?

I know that Monte has a variant Bard in his BoEMII, but that one is MORE focused on music, and that's not what I'm looking for. I want more of a Jack-of-all-trades kind of Bard, not a SpellSinger kind of Bard.

Anyone have anything, or do I have to make it up myself?

 

[Apok]

Sounds like you want a modified Sorc, to me

But, I've been thinking about the Bard, and having magical effects based around music makes no sense to me. There's no justification for it. Firstly, if the magic comes from the music, there shouldn't be any limitations to the number of times per day that they can use it. What causes the magic to become lost after you do it a number of times equal to your level? Why should my second performance as a 1st level Bard be any less significant?

This is where you start running into aesthetics v. balance problems. Same deal with Wizard v. Sorc. Since a Sorc is supposed to be a "natural" spellcaster, why does he need to use material, verbal or somatic components like the wizard? You would think that a Sorcerer would cast spells simply by the force of his will, but then you get into balance issues. Same thing with a Bard. The way Bards cast spells makes little sense if you are portraying them as "spellsinger" types, since they have to go through the same riggamarole (sp?) as wizards; limited uses per day, must use material and somatic components (verbal components make sense for the Bard in this case), etc. The Monte Cook Bard seems much closer to the idea of a "magic from music" system, but it's a definite departure from the 3rd ed. Cookie-Cutter Standard of spellcasting. Besides, you already mentioned you don't want to go this route.

Actually, I'd prefer to just toss out the musical aspect in favor of better magical progression based on wizard ability, and more skill points per level, with access to the same variety of skills that they currently have.

Ask the DM if you can play a Sorcerer with an expanded skill list and 4 skill points/level (this seems to be a common house rule in most campaigns). The only things you are loosing is the music ability (which you didn't want anyways), Bardic Knowledge, BAB and good Reflex saves.

 

[der_kluge]

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

And Hmmm, again. I can't help but think what I really want is a Rogue with a Bard skill list.

And I totally agree with you that the Sorcerer shouldn't have to use material components. We don't play with them anyway, but if we were, I'd want them tossed out for Sorcerers.

But, Sorcerers are like innate wizards. They are tainted with Dragon blood, which explains how they cast spells. Bards are nothing like that, which is why I think they should cast spells as wizards, but with a slightly slower spell progression.

I guess I'll have to consult with my DM. I think I'll write up my own Bard, though.

D6 hit dice.
6 skill points per level.
Same skill list.
Increase the number of musical abilities, but have them gained at specific levels, instead of specific ranks of the Perform skill.
Wizard-based spell casting, with a slower progression - bonus spells based on Intelligence.


***************
MODERATOR - can you move this to the RULES forum? Should have never posted it here.

 

[hong]

And Hmmm, again. I can't help but think what I really want is a Rogue with a Bard skill list.

... in other words, you want a rogue, given that nearly every bard skill is also a rogue skill.

 

[UD]

Monte cooks bard variant in his Book of Eldrich Might 2 is quite cool.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Bard variant I liked most - until now - was that presented in the Player`s Handbook. But that`s just me, I know.

If you want a rogue with the bard skill list, there are some ways:
a) simply mutliclass rogue and bard. You`ll lose one point of base attack bonus, but you gain 2 points to your Reflex save.
You can use the full variety of skills, but still have bardic abilities.
b) If you play in a Forgotten Realms campaign, or borrowed some feats from there, you could take Eduction (all Knowledge Skills become class skills, +1 bonus on two of them) or Cosmopolitian (make a cross class skill to a class skill).
c) just buy some skills as cross class. Human with high INT will give you plenty skill points...

But if you want to see some variations, look in the House Rules Forum. My thread "Feats, Spells, Variations" (link: http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7092) contains some "addable" house rules to the bard. (Just that it ain`t broken, that doesn`t mean that you can`t hamper with it )
Somewhere, there is a skald prestige class.
And perhaps you will find even more ideas.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[der_kluge]

Apparently UD did not read my initial post....

Hong - well, there are a few differences in the skills. Bards get knowledge() skills which I want, and Rogues get things like Forgery, Disable Device, and Open Locks that Bards don't get. Oddly enough, Bards don't get Spot, which makes no sense to me, neither do they get Scry, why defies understanding.

I've decided that I'm going to make my own Bard class. I just sent a note off to my DM asking his thoughts.

Basically, wizard-like spells, but songs are played in lieu of spell - in other words, a song consumes a spell slot. Some songs require higher level spell slots than others.

Instead of the paltry 5 or 6 songs they get now, I'll add one song, and they'll get one every level - not songs based on their ranks in the Perform skill.

Slightly modified skill list, which removes odd things like Scry and Pick Pockets (what's WoTC trying to imply about musicians, anyway?) and give them Spot, and maybe innuendo. Still torn about Intimidate - it is a charisma-based skill after all; just don't see Bards intimidating a lot of people.

Same Saves, same BAB, 6 skill points per level.

Ok. Yes, I know. I've got a book to write, and deadlines to meet for Thunderhead Games. But, damnit! This is my character we're talking about here!

 

[Shadowdancer]

As someone who plays a bard, I can understand several of your frustrations with the character. My only suggestion to your version is to leave the spells as charisma-based. Charisma is the logical choice for the bard's primary ability, and as such his spells should be tied to that.

 

[der_kluge]

Shadowdancer, what are you complaints about the Bard? Do you feel that it is weak?

 

[UD]

Apparently UD did not read my initial post....