Bardic Rant

[Staffan]

Re: Bards are illusionists?

I'm seeing very few of the big name illusion spells like the silent image series. It's mostly enchantments and conjurations, with a side order of transmutations and divinations.

From http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53488 :

0 - Dancing lights
1 - Disguise self (I think this is a renamed Change Self), Nystul's Magic Aura, Obscure Object, Silent Image, Undetectable Alignment, Ventriloquism
2 - Blur, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Minor Image, Mirror image, Misdirection, Silence
3 - Displacement, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Phantom Steed, Sculpt Sound
4 - Hallucinatory Terrain, Greater Invisibility, Rainbow Pattern, Shadow Conjuration, Zone of Silence
5 - Dream, False Vision, Mirage Arcana, Mislead, Nightmare, Persistant Image, Seeming, Shadow Evocation
6 - Permanent Image, Programmed Image, Project Image, Veil

OK, some of these might not be illusion spells, I just went from memory regarding what's what - but still, that list has most of the archetypical illusionist spells. It doesn't have *all* the illusion spells (the first missing one that comes to mind is Phantasmal Killer), but it does have most of them.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Ok, the bard has been compared to the other core classes regarding combat, saves, skills, feats and spells.

As Sejs pointed out, the bard is on par with most (not all!) PHB classes regarding the feats. But what about the special abilities?

Bardic Knowledge: Gained at first level.
Bardic Songs: Slowly increasing, but only a handful (ok, I don't now the changes in 3.5, but as it seems, the number has not been increased much and the last song is gained at level 12 *sigh*).
Spells: Slow advance, up to level 6, no preparation. Short list of known spells.

Barabarian: Lots of combat oriented abilities.
No spells.

Cleric: Turn/rebuke undead at first level.
Spells increase normally to level 9; domain spells and powers. All spells gained if advanced to a higher spell level. Spell preparation.

Druid: Quite a bunch of special abilities. Very versatile. More abilities at higher levels. Animal companion at first level.
Spells increase like the cleric, but smaller spell list.

Fighter: Bonus feats en masse...
No spells.

Paladin: First two levels are filled with special abilities. Smite Evil and Remove Disease increase with additional levels.
Small divine spell list with spells of up to 4th level. Preparation time needed (like a cleric).

Monk: Well, as it seems, a special ability each level. But let's wait for 3.5.
No spells, but spell-like abilities at high levels.

Ranger: 3.5 ... But the previews point to a less frontloaded class.

Rogue: Special abilities almost each odd level. Skill points each level 8+INT...
No spells, but can use magic devices (also scrolls) if UMD is high.

Sorcerer: Familiar at first level.
Spell levels increase at bit slower than cleric or wizard. No spell preparation. List of known spells quite short, but advances to level 9 spells.

Wizard: Familiar at first level plus scribe scroll. Bonus metamagic every 5 levels.
Spells increase as a cleric up to level 9. Longest spell list if splat books are used, but must learn spells and pay the copies. Spell preparation.


The question is: Are the bard's special abilities combined with his spell power on one level with the other classes?

EDIT: Clarification, STUPID typos

 

[DreamChaser]

You forgot skills.

For the Bard:
Diplomacy
UMD
Speak Language (in 3.0, probably whatever version exists in 3.5)

In combat: Group of orcs. Bard knows orcish Casts Charm Person. Orcs are not renowned for their will save. Bard calls for help from new buddy. New buddy starts to help (believing even more since bard knows orcish).

Start again.

Monsters often have low will saves. Bards can capitalize on that when they get Charm Monster.

Cast invisibility
UMD with a wand of summon monster
Cast Major Image (or use a wand)
Repeat until bad guys don't know which are the monsters and which are the illusions.


And so on. It just takes a little more finesse and a little less brute force to run a bard in combat.

Someone a while back replied to me saying that my argument that druids and rangers are less effective in the city was erronious but a previous argument that bards were useless in combat was fine. They pointed out that a druids spells still work in the city (true, provided they can find the animals and plants to use them on, since many of them require that). I would like to point out that a bard's social skills are useful in combat. But they are more complicated to use than a fireball or a sword.

DC

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

I play a bard/ sorcerer and though I mainly took a few rnaks in bard for flavor/role playing , I do like the fact that it comes with healing spells, and the Bardic music is pretty cool too. I have no complaints.

 

[Apok]

Bardic Songs: Slowly increasing, but only a handful (ok, I don't now the changes in 3.5, but as it seems, the number has not been increased much and the last song is gained at level 12 *sigh*).

IIRC, they got 3 or 4 new Bardic Songs, and Inspire Courage was improved (the bonus now goes up with level). I think the last song is gained around 15th level, but you may want to check the Compiled Revisions thread.

 

[Spatula]

Bard songs by class level:

1: Countersong, Fascinate (1 creature), Inspire Courage +1, Inspire Competence, Bardic Knowledge
4: Fascinate (2 creatures)
6: Suggestion
7: Fascinate (3 creatures)
8: Inspire Courage +2
9: Inspire Greatness
10: Fascinate (4 creatures)
12: Song of Freedom
13: Fascinate (5 creatures)
14: Inspire Courage +3
15: Inspire Heroics (1 creature)
16: Fascinate (6 creatures)
18: Mass Suggestion, Inspire Heroics (2 creatures)
19: Fascinate (7 creatures)
20: Inspire Courage +4

Last new song is Mass Suggestion, gained at 18th level.

 

[Destil]

And can you actually see anyone using Mass Cure Moderate wounds? As a sixth level spell!? That is pathetic to the extreme. A measily 2d8+5 at like 15th level will be worthless for any combat.

Andy Collins has already stated that the mass spells have higher limits because of their higher spell level, effectivly not coming into play until epic levels (I'm guessing Mass Cure light caps at +20). So that'll be 2d8+15 damage. For your standard 4 PC party, that's 68-124 HP. Now if you have a cohort or two, or a larger pary, some summoned monsters or something it's even more... Not bad at all, when heal caps at 150 HP, for compairison.

 

[Dinkeldog]

First, 2d8+15 isn't very useful when you have to heal someone. If you're out of combat, use wands--they're more cost-effective; if you're in combat, you need to heal more than 17 points--you probably need to heal more than 31 points. So if you're out of combat, use scrolls of heal.

Second, why would anyone think that a bard should be able to stand up to a cleric in combat? No one else can.

 

[ForceUser]

Second, why would anyone think that a bard should be able to stand up to a cleric in combat? No one else can.

The sorceress in my group would own up on the cleric in my group. All those Reflex saves.

 

[Storminator]

First, 2d8+15 isn't very useful when you have to heal someone. If you're out of combat, use wands--they're more cost-effective; if you're in combat, you need to heal more than 17 points--you probably need to heal more than 31 points. So if you're out of combat, use scrolls of heal.

Second, why would anyone think that a bard should be able to stand up to a cleric in combat? No one else can.

Wands are more cost effective than a spell that costs nothing and heals a lot more? It's not likely to be a prepared spell, but if this is a spontaneous spell, its all good. If you survive the last fight of the day and still have a spell or two left, this is a great party healer.

PS