Bardic Rant

[Zappo]

Bards dominate at information gathering and diplomacy. And don't pull the "never balance roleplaying with mechanics" argument about this; their bonuses in those fields are mechanical, and so are a valid balance point.

In combat, since it seems that balance == combat balance , bards can't deal damage effectively. No contest about that. However, the point of combat isn't dealing damage; it's defeating the foes. Additionally, in D&D combat generally isn't one-on-one; the characters are in a party. With the various disabling spells that the bard can use, he can 1) contribute to defeating the foe as much as anyone else, and 2) let the player have fun as well as any other class. I don't see what else could you want.

 

[Dinkeldog]

The sorceress in my group would own up on the cleric in my group. All those Reflex saves.

Your cleric needs to learn the value of persistent Divine Favor. The single most game-breaking player I had had a cleric with two levels of divine oracle (evasion), one level of templar (mettle) and persistent divine favor.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Wands are more cost effective than a spell that costs nothing and heals a lot more? It's not likely to be a prepared spell, but if this is a spontaneous spell, its all good. If you survive the last fight of the day and still have a spell or two left, this is a great party healer.

PS

They are when your bard has very few spell slots. Wands of CLW cost next to nothing.

What type of DM do you have that you always know you survived the last fight of the day?

 

[ForceUser]

Your cleric needs to learn the value of persistent Divine Favor. The single most game-breaking player I had had a cleric with two levels of divine oracle (evasion), one level of templar (mettle) and persistent divine favor.

Ahh, there you go...house rule among us, Persistant Spell feat is not allowed. It IS game-breaking.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Ahh, there you go...house rule among us, Persistant Spell feat is not allowed. It IS game-breaking.

That just means his first round didn't have to be casting divine favor. The whole spell needs to be limited at like +3 or something.

 

[Trainz@work]

Something funny is happening to me.

I didn't care much for playing a bard, The more I read about the weaknesses, the more I want to try him out...

Weird, uh ?

I want to try that spontaneous casting, enchantment throwing, role-playing freak. I don't know why, I just got the urge...

 

[Bloodsparrow]

I'm known, among my friends who play, as an obsessive player of Bards. So I guess I'll chime in.

I believe somebody already said something about this but...

Bards rarely have the stats to place into strength, so they cannot melee, even with bows, the lack of Mighty power causes them to fall behind. A Bard is class that cannot truly contribute past the support stage.

Not true, there's nothing that says you HAVE to be a dexterous bard. And even if it were true, that's what Bull's Strength is for! (Or Cat's Grace if the situation is reversed.)

I'm currently playing an Archer Bard in a "Core Books Only" game (PHP and DMG), and I think she's working out quite well. Since I'm human I started out with the Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot Feats. Then, just as I start to "lag behind" as you say, I'll pick up Precise Shot and the ability to cast Bull's Strength.

Other people have brought up the point that Bards must take from other Arcane spells instead of getting their own, sonic based, system.

I think this rather gets away from the idea of a "core book". It could be that PHP Bards get spells from "other classes" because that magic system is already in place. The point of a core book, as I see it, is to try and keep things relatively simple. Once you get to an individual DM, or a "source book" THAT'S when things would start to get wacky.

The other argument would be that Bards are supposed to be, Jacks of All Trades, so it would make since that they knew spells from "other classes". (Though they seem to be less "Jacky" of late. I really miss getting that "Bardic Knowledge" roll when ever I came into contact with . . . anything.)

As far as I'm concerned, when I'm playing a Bard, I may well be "just" a support character in combat. But when we hit town, or we happen upon people we don't want to kill right of the bat, my parties always look to me, and they become the support characters. ("I'm going to negotiate our reward... You guys stand here and look tough.")

 

[Storminator]

They are when your bard has very few spell slots. Wands of CLW cost next to nothing.

What type of DM do you have that you always know you survived the last fight of the day?

We've got a wizard with teleport. We decide when its the last fight of the day most times. And a high level party can nearly burn thru a wand of CLW in one sitting.

Of course my party is also out saving the world all the time, and rarely has time to get loot. I know I have not picked up a single coin in 3 levels. I was given more powerful items once (in order to help us save the world...). There is no way we'd ever buy a cure wand. A teleport staff, now that's worth getting, but not a cure wand.

PS

 

[Petrosian]

Balance among PCs is derived from the abilities they have and how frequently and how significantly the abilites play a role in overcoming the challenges.

That means all aspects of balance between characters with dynamic differences comes from the story and scenarios the GM is putting them into.

if a Gm runs a demon invasion plot which focuses on a lot of relatively low Ac low HP highly magic resistant demons then those whose specialties rely on melee attacks or ranged attacks and not on spell attacks will do better. If it features a lot of golems who are almost completely immune to magic, similar "imbalances" will occur.

If the Gm wants 'character type A" to be balanced in his game he MUST design the challenges and story he uses to make that happen. it wont happen by magic because some guy on the west coast made an assumption.

A campaign making a bard balanced with a fighter needs to have the Gm make the bardic traits of knowledge gathering, social ability, and versatility IMPORTANT to the story and success. This means, for instance, a lot of useful information being seeded before the fighting starts so that by using his knowledge and gather info the bard gathers information that will make some of the combat scenarios easier. (these are often described as puzzle scenarios where finding the key will lower the CR of the encounter.)

If a Gm doesn't doi this for EVERY PC, figure out what scenario and story tailoring needs to be done to give them balance, then he wont have a balanced campaign unless he just happens to get lucky.