Bards and their wacky arcane cure spells.

[BSF]

I think its totally "in character" to know the difference between divine and arcane magic. I think that would be a fairly elementary use of Knowledge (Arcane) or Spellcraft skills.

I wouldn't entirely agree unless you also subscribe to the rule that spellcraft checks for different classes incur a +5 to the DC.

But, it is difficult to seperate a lot of the metagame knowledge without assuming that if you make your spellcraft check, you can make understand what spell lists offer access to that spell. So, for all intents, it is easier to assume that you can readily identify between Divine and Arcane magic.

That being said, I will go back on the main topic. I tend to run Divine magic as blessings from whatever power is granting them (and there are plenty in my campaign), Wizard spells are the result of Lore and memorization, Sorceror spells come from a wild talent for shaping arcane magic, and Bard spells tend to come straight from the soul. Now, all of this is purely flavor for my game, but it makes it difficult for cross-training between classes to occur.

All that being said, why couldn't a wizard research a cure spell? There have been curative type arcane magics in previous editions. I see no reason why a wizard couldn't. Though, I can think of some reasons why it might be ill-conceived to allow a wizard character to do so. However, in the right campaign, it might be just fine. It is unlikely that I would allow it in my games, and if I did, it would be much harder to cast. Certainly, Cure light wounds would be at least 2nd level, possibly 3rd.

 

[Ottergame]

Since a Cure spell isn't on a wizard's spell-list, they can't learn it. And just because bard's get it doesn't matter, a wizard could or could not research the spell (up to your DM) regardless of what a bard can do.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I treat bardic magic as similar to what was portrayed in Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow, if anyone is familiar with the series.

Bards use music to harmonize themselves with the essence of magic, either singing or playing an instrument to coax the power into the necesary shape for the effect they wish to create. Bardic scrolls are basically sheet music, and thus while a wizard might have the experience (read: Spellcraft) to recognize what a bardic scroll is meant to do, he cannot use it himself.

Likewise, bards have access to healing magic because such his (IMO) the nature of their magic. Like music, it can soothe, distract, create illusions, allow one thing to become another, but rarely can it destroy. They channel the magic through themselves, and use their music to direct its course.

On the other hand, wizards tap into the raw power of magic to make things go boom. They control magic through the use of formulae and magical glyphs. It allows them to control more raw power, but they will never have a light-enough touch to focus the magic into the mortal body and mend it.

This is of course merely a rationalization, but it works for me. In short: divine magic is the power of the gods. Arcane magic is the magic of mortals. Mortal magic can heal, but wizards and sorcerers can't. Their discipline isn't subtle enough.


If a wizard in my campaign wanted to try and research an arcane healing spell, he'd most likely have wasted time and money.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I'm not that big a fan of the, IMO!, seemingly quite arbitary differences between arcane and divine magic...

What I'd really like to see is a variation on the Gestalt caster from Unearthed Arcana... expanded so that you pick 'magical paths'. Less paths you pick the more non magical abilities you get access to - larger hit die, better BAB/Saves, shapeshifting, etc. I'd try making it myself, but my rule balancing ability really isn't up to it!

Arcana Unearthed gets fairly close, but I find their categories too broad.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I treat bardic magic as similar to what was portrayed in Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow, if anyone is familiar with the series.

Yay, someone else read it! I enjoyed that series a lot, but can't persuade any of my friends to even look at it. It 'infected' my ideas about bards as well. The Earthlink got stolen as well.

 

[Mouseferatu]

This is representative of what I see as a larger issue in the game as it stands now. Namely, the system can't seem to make up its mind about how different arcane and divine magic are. Personally, I'd prefer future editions (I know, I know, we're not supposed to even hint at such a possibility as future editions ) take it in one of two directions:

1) Eliminate the divide between arcane magic and divine magic altogether, and just have spellcasting classes choose paths or techniques of magic. Or...

2) Strengthen the divide. Eliminate most overlap; leave a few utility spells (detect magic, light) available to both, but otherwise trim the lists so there are almost no overlapping spells. Make a clear delineation between what arcane magic can and can't do, and what divine magic can and can't do, and stick with it.

The current division is too half-hearted IMO, going either too far or not far enough, and not being quite satisfying in either case. I'd love for clerics and wizards to be vastly different, if they're going to be different at all.

 

[Gez]

What I want future editions to do is to have, at most, four spell lists.

Arcane (for the likes of Bard, Sorcerer, and Wizard), Divine (for the likes of Cleric and Paladin), Nature (Druid and Ranger), Psionic (Psion, etc.).

Then all would be simpler. A wizard would get arcane spells, a bard would get arcane spells, and that's all.

If you want to avoid bards casting fireballs, you can either restrict them by school (frex, bards get only illusion and enchantment); or by a complexity threshold akin to Arcana Unearthed's one: simple, complex, exotic.

It's a book-keeping pain to have one spell-list by class. Especially when you have new classes in one book, and new spells in another. Which Tome & Blood spells could fit a Wu Jen from Oriental Adventures?

 

[Li Shenron]

I think the 3rd edition Bard was intended to be indeed a Jack-of-all-trades, and I wouldn't be surprised if the designers had evaluated the possibility of making him a half-arcane/half-divine caster, but soon decided that it was not an easy thing to handle. Having a colourful spell list and UMD as class skill was eventually considered enough.

 

[Umbran]

The current division is too half-hearted IMO, going either too far or not far enough, and not being quite satisfying in either case.

That's not a flaw in the system. If you look at it corectly, it's a feature!

You see, a half-hearted divide leads to more thinking, and makes it easier for a given DM to tweak it slightly to one side or another. To strengthen the divide, or eliminate it entirely from the core would tend to channel all DMs down that particular route, andmake it more conceptual and practical labor for any particular DM to deviate from the new standard. The current vague and unrationalized divide is more flexible than either of the other two alternatives, and that's a good thing.

This may not be an issue on the message boards, but think of the masses out there, folks who have the core books and their own imaginations, without the hybridization we enjoy here.

 

[Mouseferatu]

That's not a flaw in the system. If you look at it corectly, it's a feature!

You see, a half-hearted divide leads to more thinking, and makes it easier for a given DM to tweak it slightly to one side or another. To strengthen the divide, or eliminate it entirely from the core would tend to channel all DMs down that particular route, andmake it more conceptual and practical labor for any particular DM to deviate from the new standard. The current vague and unrationalized divide is more flexible than either of the other two alternatives, and that's a good thing.

This may not be an issue on the message boards, but think of the masses out there, folks who have the core books and their own imaginations, without the hybridization we enjoy here.

I'm a huge proponent of giving as many options as possible, but I'm not sure I agree with the logic in this case. The fact is, most people don't tweak the magic-using classes. They keep them as they are, blurry divide and all. It's not doing anyone any favors, really.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's bad the way it is. I just believe it would be better--across the board, for purposes of flavor and imagination both--if they went one way or the other. That, IMO, would actually provide more flexibility than we have now, not less. Fuzzy definitions aren't the same things as options.