D&D 5E Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

[Minigiant]

I wouldn't necessarily make it truenaming (although I like the idea) simply because the idea that beings (all? some? only supernatural ones?) have true names isn't something that's been explored in D&D before.

Instead, I'd go with the idea that bards can name things, and those names stick--at least long enough for their magic to work on. A lot of the times, the bard will name a creature "Mud" because the goal is to kill/defeat that creature. It's similar in concept but not identical.

Something like that. Bard magic isn't true truenaming as they don't actual say the truenames.

It's a derivative of Truenaming like Traditional Spellcasting and Pact Magic that is safe for mortals. However it is closer in application but farther is accuracy.
But like you said, bards say what something is or give something a name to raise or lower its importance to fate temporarily. Like you said, bard give things new names and the reality warps to merge the two for a time.

 

[jayoungr]

There is a limit to the reflavoring allowed.

Allowed by whom? By you?

That's the issue with the current bard. It's so permissive and focused on function, it end up not feeling reaching its potential in the magic of bards.

Basically, you're just saying you want stronger niche and less flexibility. Personally, I like the flexibility in this case.

 

[Minigiant]

Allowed by whom? By you?

Allowed by the system.
The game system explains how magic comes from musical or oratory works. Therefore the onus is one the player to explain how magic comes from knife juggling.

If I said my fighter swung his nonmagical club and fire spewed out of it, many would state this cannot happen. Thus the responsibilty to explain this and convince the masses would be on me.

Basically, you're just saying you want stronger niche and less flexibility. Personally, I like the flexibility in this case.

I actually am not asking for less flexibility.
I either was to switch spell flexibility with inspiration flexibility OR give the bard a strong niche with more bard-like spells.
My argument was always that the 5e bard was focused on making it a better adventurer at the expense of making it a better bard.

If i were to contine with the point, this function focus had a ripple effect of stripping many illusion and enchantments from the sorcerer and warlock to make the bard feel different. However since individual spell lists are different and new subclasses bleed into other classes, the bard's spell list looks less special as time passed. Therefore leaning on the bard's full casterness without unique spells weakens it hold on the flexibility trope that many lean on. Combine that with ways to get expertise and the full caster bard with very few unique spells feels blander and blander.

 

[Parmandur]

Allowed by the system.
The game system explains how magic comes from musical or oratory works. Therefore the onus is one the player to explain how magic comes from knife juggling.

5E is, if nothing else, extremely amenable to reflavoring.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Wow, um, so where to start with this...

How many plumbers, electricians, and carpenters do you know or are related to?

Several.

Because I have friends and family in all of those categories, and they are specialists. They might be able to do general tasks in other disciplines, but they know enough to know when they need to get another specialist for the job. The diversity and specialized nature of the trades is precisely why I'm skeptical of the idea of a "jack og all trades."

Yes. The point of the concept is a person who can competently perform several trades, which is an impressive thing to be able to do.

Hardly inappropriate or strange for a PC concept, especially considering there are people who do it IRL. Hell my father in law is a master mechanic who is competent to diagnose and repair everything from performance cars, electric cars (his first job in CA after college was building them), tractors and heavy equipment, diesel trucks, hell I’ve seen him rebuild a Sea-Do, has been a pro race car driver, has built over a dozen race cars and more high performance street cars, including fully engineering and fabricating exhaust systems, fuel systems, etc, and is a competent/journeyman level or better welder, both in repair and fabrication. Oh, and he designed and built his shop.

Because of that broad skill base, all of which he is competent, not mediocre, in, he has an excellent reputation and the shop is always very, very busy.

When we look back a few centuries, guys like him were less rare, because vanishingly few trades were as complex or as time consuming to learn.

The "Jack of All Trades" Bard has certainly existed in the past, "worked" is stronger language than I would apply to how it functioned. The 5E Bard has the virtue of feeling like a Jack of All Trades while actually being a well focused support caster: they do this partly by stealing from the Subclass power budget to provide flavorful abilities in the core Class.

The 4e and 5e Bard areJacks of all trades. The 3.5 Bard worked about as well as any of the not “broken good” elements of 3.5 worked.

 

[Faolyn]

Allowed by the system.
The game system explains how magic comes from musical or oratory works. Therefore the onus is one the player to explain how magic comes from knife juggling.

If I said my fighter swung his nonmagical club and fire spewed out of it, many would state this cannot happen. Thus the responsibilty to explain this and convince the masses would be on me.

What's the archetype? If you were an eldritch knight and cast burning hands, you could easily flavor it as coming out of your club.

And what's the magic? Throwing knives around can lend themselves to any number of enchantments (your target is being hypnotized by the movement), protective spells like shield (the incoming attack is deflected off the knife), and illusions (while tossing the knife, it seems to change shape into the illusion you're making).

Sure, the player needs to come up with this, but it's not breaking the archetype or going too far in reflavoring to do so.

 

[Parmandur]

Several.

Yes. The point of the concept is a person who can competently perform several trades, which is an impressive thing to be able to do.

Hardly inappropriate or strange for a PC concept, especially considering there are people who do it IRL. Hell my father in law is a master mechanic who is competent to diagnose and repair everything from performance cars, electric cars (his first job in CA after college was building them), tractors and heavy equipment, diesel trucks, hell I’ve seen him rebuild a Sea-Do, has been a pro race car driver, has built over a dozen race cars and more high performance street cars, including fully engineering and fabricating exhaust systems, fuel systems, etc, and is a competent/journeyman level or better welder, both in repair and fabrication. Oh, and he designed and built his shop.

Because of that broad skill base, all of which he is competent, not mediocre, in, he has an excellent reputation and the shop is always very, very busy.

When we look back a few centuries, guys like him were less rare, because vanishingly few trades were as complex or as time consuming to learn.

The 4e and 5e Bard areJacks of all trades. The 3.5 Bard worked about as well as any of the not “broken good” elements of 3.5 worked.

My own father in law is a General Contractor, and while he is a master carpenter, he is a "jack" at other trades: knows the basics and even intermediate stuff, knows enough when he needs to call in somebody else for a job.

The 5E Bard is not a Jack of All Trades, but it gives the illusion of being so very effectively, as the Bard has a definite mechanical role at which it excels, much more so than the 3E actual attempt to be kind of OK at everything.

 

[jayoungr]

I actually am not asking for less flexibility.

From where I'm standing, it looks like you are, but I don't feel like digging into this right now, so let's just agree to disagree?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Merlin is a composite of two separate somewhat historical figures, a Roman military leader and a bard called Merlin. The magical traditions are mainly Celtic bardic ones. Merlin compares to Taliesin, a bard with extremely powerful magic.

The word "wizard" means someone who knows magic, a generic term.

One of traditions says Merlin is the son of an "incubus". Given the provenance of place and time, this probably relates to later Scottish traditions of witches and elves, making Merlin something like a half elf. Nevertheless, the Merlin tradition probably demonizes the incubus, whence "cambion". But even then this is part of the Celtic magical concept ot the union of opposites, where this demon Merlin kinda sorta gets baptised as a Christian. In an other union of opposites, Merlin is born as an elder, and becomes more youthful as he ages.

I have no opinion about a reallife warlock. Besides the fact that (certain) communities referred to male witches as "warlock", everything else is obscure.

The term "druid" came to mean a generic term for mage. What the original druid is originally, we can guess at. They are a priestly caste (sacred family) who served Celtic gods, whose social role probably resembles Irish Catholic priests, and who in times of war fought magically and did not use weapons.

Some things are clear. Merlin is a bard.



My approach is, when using a reallife cultural heritage term, make sure one knows what one is talking about. Make sure knowledgeable people from that culture consider the use of the term reasonable.



I feel D&D doesnt entitle gamers to violate other peoples cultures.



I agree the term "music mage" is bland. But obviously the term "bard" wouldnt work if the result is something that isnt what a bard is. Think about the concept, then try come up with a catchy (accurate) name for it.

It is so easy to not use a specific term from someone elses culture. If one wants to use it, do it accurately.

You keep bringing up how many cultural issues you have with D&D. I would very much love to see Yaarel's PH. How would you solve all the issues you think D&D should fix?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Anderson and Gygax were Americans, not Europeans. And I don't want WotC or some other company hiring an Asian lead designer to make a hash out of Asian culture any more than I want them to hire an American designer to make a hash out of American culture. But this has nothing to do with taking bards from full to half casters so I'll drop it.

How do you fix that? If you're American of European descent are you just not allowed to be a game designer?