D&D 5E (2014) Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

[Paul Farquhar]

I would not compare computer game with a rpg, even if they use the same rules.

I don't consider level 12 in ADnD2e early... but that may vary from group to group. Which is why I was specifically talking about my experience.

It's equivalent to being a full caster up till level 12, then gaining nothing thereafter. I doubt that would be popular, even if a majority of campaigns end before that point. Players care about what their character could potentially do. Non-linier progression was not a popular feature, and was broadly considered unfair, which is why 3rd edition changed to 2/3 casters, keeping the maximum spell level but levelling out the progression.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's equivalent to being a full caster up till level 12, then gaining nothing thereafter. I doubt that would be popular, even if a majority of campaigns end before that point. Players care about what their character could potentially do. Non-linier progression was not a popular feature, and was broadly considered unfair, which is why 3rd edition changed to 2/3 casters, keeping the maximum spell level but levelling out the progression.

Generalizations are always wrong...

I was a player back then and changing the bard to 2/3 caster while unifying xp progression was seriously nerving the bard.
You also do forget, that the bard also lost effective hp by not being levels ahead. Also the attack bonus in 2e increased way faster than the wizard's, making them better for spells that used attacks while also increasing the effect of spells (fireball) or both (chromatic orb... cough...)

 

[James Gasik]

I wouldn't call it "way faster". When the Bard is level 10 and the Wizard is level 9 (160,000 xp), the Wizard's Thac0 is one point worse. Let's be quite real here, Thief/Bard Thac0 is horrible for someone actually intended to attack things with weapons.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I wouldn't call it "way faster". When the Bard is level 10 and the Wizard is level 9 (160,000 xp), the Wizard's Thac0 is one point worse. Let's be quite real here, Thief/Bard Thac0 is horrible for someone actually intended to attack things with weapons.

No, it is a 2 point difference, bit yes, way faster might be a bit of an overstatement.
The xp table however is not all that counts. It is also the way rogues gain class based xp. 2xp per gold found. That usually translates into huge amunts of exra xp.

 

[James Gasik]

Oh oops, I somehow looked at Wizard 10 instead of 9 on the chart. Also, gaining xp from treasure is sadly an optional rule in 2e.

 

[cbwjm]

I still would have preferred to be a 2e wizard than a bard, the only thing they lose out on compared with bard spell progression is caster level. At the level that the bard gained access to new spell levels, the wizard was there first and now has more spell slots available. Wizards are probably more likely to learn new spells if the chance to learn spells is enforced (though I never enforced this or the max spells/level).

 

[James Gasik]

Technically, there are a few xp points where Bards get new spells first, like when they get their first 6th level spell. But yeah, getting spells on a Bard can be rough. At least Wizards can be specialists and get free spells on level up.

 

[cbwjm]

Technically, there are a few xp points where Bards get new spells first, like when they get their first 6th level spell. But yeah, getting spells on a Bard can be rough. At least Wizards can be specialists and get free spells on level up.

That's when a bard hits level 16, a wizard is level 13 at that point and already has a couple of 6th level spell slots and are close to hitting 14th level where they get 7th level spell slots.

 

[Mordhau]

Bards. What do we do with them? What's special about them?
Music.
They get music? Great? We build a class all around music and magic. Who wants to create a whole new magic system around music?
...
Anyone?
...
That's not how they have traditionally worked. Remembere you said it has to feel like D&D?
Ok what'a traditional about them besides music?
They suck.
I mean appart from that?
They get a little bit of everything but are not particular good at any one thing.
I said apart from sucking.
Ummm....
Ok then. Let's just keep the stealing a little bit from everyone else but in a sucky way and add full spellcasting to it.
Umm...? Won't that just make them like Sorcerers, but better?
Good point. Ok. Mess around with their spell list a bit so that they look different. Make sure they don't get fireball. Everyone knows fireball is the best spell, so as long as they don't get that Sorcerers will be fine.

 

[James Gasik]

No you're right, I was obviously distracted by a Bard.

EDIT: Mordhau, you forgot hard to qualify for! Now be a Fighter 5, then dual class to Thief 7, then party with some druids, and then you can take your first level of Bard...