D&D 5E Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

le Redoutable

Ich bin El Glouglou :)
...like Abjuration and Necromancy ===> Cleric,
Evocation/Invocation and Transmutation ===> Elementalist
Illusions/Phantasms ==> Illusionnist
and Conjration/Summoning ?? ===> Druid ??

edit: Divination also ===> Cleric
 

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Merlin is a druid or wizard. At this point in D&D history the bard is the minstrel archetype, not a Celtic archetype. they haven't had druid spells since 1st edition.

I would be quite happy if bard was folded into rogue and had no spells at all. Celtic bard could become a druid subclass.
Why are you so keen about changing or removing a whole class concept others have fun with.
Why can't there a ministrel subclass for rogues that are the magic less bard or for the fighter that is the skald?

I think the DnD bard as a potent spellcaster is its own tradition now. As I sad elsewhere, someone without a way to recover spells over the day is already not a real full caster. So if you compare the bard of 5e to the wizard of 5e and the bard of 2e with the wizard of 2e, you notice that both have access to fewer spells per day but their highest slot progression is not that far apart.
 

BrokenTwin

Biological Disaster
I 100% agree that bards should be half casters, for a class that's supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades, them having 9th-level spells never sat well with me. Increase the power and usability of their bardic inspiration abilities, make that the primary focus of the class.

I also think the druid should ALSO be a half caster. The difference between Nature domain clerics and druids is already ridiculously tiny from a conceptual perspective, druids should be focused on their class-unique mechanic (wildshape). They should still get cantrips though.
 

This whole thread is basically "fantasy heartbreaker" thinking in detail.

There's no actual design problem being solved, which is evident from the first post. There's an opinion from some that "things should be different", which is not the same thing at all. The OP proposes a basically different design for Bards, and one unlike any other class in 5E - that of being forced into a support role with no other choices. Clerics aren't like that, Druids aren't like that. No class is. Because D&D 5E doesn't do forced support roles. 4E did - it had cleanly separated roles, and a support Bard worked well there because 4E had stuff which made support classes extremely strong and fun to play - something 5E is profoundly missing.

What's also funny is that, by following the OP's suggestions, the Bard would be an extremely bad support class. By having a vastly smaller number of spells, and being limited to slowly acquiring level 1-5 spells, the Bard would be hugely inferior in performing support to Clerics/Druids and so on. The OP doesn't seem to have taken on board that in 5E, most support functionality has been moved back to spells. And just adding to the "fantasy heartbreaker" vibe, what are the OP's suggestions for specializing/differentiating Bard subclasses? Spells. They're all spells. Some of them are spells which the Bard wouldn't even gain access to until what, level 17? Like, seriously, you want not only to give Bards a much smaller number of spells, and much weaker spellcasting, but you also want to limit them further with a theme? Just wild. As bonus to that, many of the suggested spells are terrible spells mechanically - weak, ineffective or niche spells which are not fun to use.

And suggestions like this:
I also think the druid should ALSO be a half caster. The difference between Nature domain clerics and druids is already ridiculously tiny from a conceptual perspective, druids should be focused on their class-unique mechanic (wildshape). They should still get cantrips though.
Pure fantasy heartbreaker thinking. The classic "Yeah I know it's been a full caster for many decades, but like, I think we should theme entirely it over this one ability which, in literary fantasy and mythology, isn't even a primary druid thing, because that's my opinion!". And we apparently don't even consider whether the real problem is nature domain Clerics being a thing (hint: it is), rather than vice-versa.

Let me just add - I think a lot of this thinking comes primarily from older video games. Bards being a purely supportive deal is completely an early MMO thing (it's not even true of modern MMOs). Druids being all about shapeshifting is primarily something seen in video games (particularly World of Warcraft). But in those games they at least got incredibly impressive abilities that no-one else had access to, and unique mechanics to support them. Here we're just looking at them being a bad caster who has some weak support abilities, rather than a custom-designed class with its own mechanics. Which won't even impress people if they somehow time-travelled from 2000 and wanted to play a support-only Bard.

On top of all this, the idea that the Bard "needs changing" is utterly repudiated by the fact that 5E Bards are incredibly popular. And they're not played the way the OP wants them to be limited to being played. This really destroys the idea that there's a "problem" to be "solved" with Bards as class.

There is, I'd argue, an actual issue with 5E that the OP and others don't fully seem to appreciate, which is that a lot of people want to play a Spellblade or Red Mage or similar class, and 5E is godawful at providing such a class, and definitely some people playing Bards are doing so because it's one of the less-awful ways to do that. But you don't fix that by weirdly limiting Bards to a role no other class is limited to (not even Artificer). You fix that by providing a Spellblade class.
 
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Why are you so keen about changing or removing a whole class concept others have fun with.
Because several base classes are redundant and could easily be replaced by subclasses. As well as the bard, the barbarian could be split between fighter and ranger, and warlock and sorcerer could be merged.

The concepts are still there, but with less overlap.
Why can't there a ministrel subclass for rogues that are the magic less bard or for the fighter that is the skald?
Yes, I'm all for that. We just don't need a bard class as well.
I think the DnD bard as a potent spellcaster is its own tradition now.
And it still would be as a druid subclass.
 

Because several base classes are redundant and could easily be replaced by subclasses. As well as the bard, the barbarian could be split between fighter and ranger, and warlock and sorcerer could be merged.
That doesn't answer his question.

Classes aren't redundant just because you say they're redundant. D&D is an exception-based system. Such systems generally benefit from fairly large numbers of classes with mechanical overlap. Conceptual overlap is inevitable in any game which doesn't have a specific setting to tie the specific classes into. Complaining about it doesn't even make sense, given it's been present since literally 1E, and ironically, the conceptual overlap is part of why D&D is popular, not unpopular.

@UngeheuerLich raises a good point, one which I get makes people demanding change for change's sake uncomfortable, but the reality is, D&D is popular not because it's some tightly-designed little game with a tiny number of classes with near-zero conceptual or mechanical overlap, it's popular because it's this sprawling thing with tons of classes and practically infinity races, and where two people with very similar concepts might end up in very different classes.

Attempts to "pare down" D&D are thus fundamentally wrong-headed. Fundamentally fantasy heartbreaker thinking. You're going to make less players happy, not more. The only person getting jollies from cutting down stuff is the person doing it, and maybe a few like-minded people, and their thrills are entirely aesthetic. I strongly suggest anyone who thinks that's a great idea start a Kickstarter (or whatever we're using now KS decided they want to be blockchain ninnies) and see exactly how far they get with that.

It's not going to be one of your "breaks $1m" KSes, I'll say that much.
 

S'mon

Legend
In terms of filling a useful role within the party, full casters are much easier to fit in than half casters. At a pinch a 5e Bard can sub for a Cleric or Wizard/Sorcerer. A Ranger or Paladin really can't. For me that is a big reason to either leave them full-caster, or go the C&C route where they are more like a 4e Warlord.
 

And it still would be as a druid subclass.

I don't see the bard as a druid subclass in a 5e sense. If you wanted that, you would need to rebuild the druid and take away shape shifting as a base ability.

You could then split the druid into a shape shifting subclass and a music/tale spinning subclass. But then you take away a lot of different playstyles for bards.
Maybe if you build the class a bit like the warlock with 2 decision points: tales or shapeshifting and then later a proper subclass... But then you still have to shuffle a lot of subclasses to different base classes.
That may be possible and worth thinking about, but it might be too much for the 2024 edition.

But hey, I start:

Fighter - armored (fighter) , unarmored (barbarian)
Rogue - sneaky(rogue), inner focus(monk)
Sorcerer - bloodline(sorcerer), pact(warlock)
Dedicated spellcaster-arcane(wizard), divine(cleric)
Druid - shapeshifting(druid), tales and music(bard)
Half-caster - druidic(ranger), divine(paladin)

But actually at that point, why not leave the classes as they are...
 

I don't see the bard as a druid subclass in a 5e sense. If you wanted that, you would need to rebuild the druid and take away shape shifting as a base ability.
Absolutely. Removing wildshape from the core class opens up far more design-space. You can see that several of the more recent druid subclasses (spores, stars, wildfire) have tried to repurpose wildshape, but they would have been better if they could have just swapped it out.
 

Fighter - armored (fighter) , unarmored (barbarian)
Rogue - sneaky(rogue), inner focus(monk)
Sorcerer - bloodline(sorcerer), pact(warlock)
Dedicated spellcaster-arcane(wizard), divine(cleric)
Druid - shapeshifting(druid), tales and music(bard)
Half-caster - druidic(ranger), divine(paladin)

But actually at that point, why not leave the classes as they are...
Indeed re: leaving them as they are.

All this sort of thing does is introduce more complication and decision-points which make the game more confusing for less expert players. Right now, thanks to the popularity of D&D, and the large number of classes, it's relatively easy for a newcomer to pick a class and have a good idea what they're getting. The fewer classes you have, the more decisions needed to make a class function in a specific way, the harder that becomes, and eventually you reach a point where newer players are basically going to have to read a guide and/or get another, more experienced player to tell them how to do what they want.

D&D's main issue is really not X is a full-caster or whatever.

The real issue is that D&D's classes are a bit outdated/outmoded, and really, to fit with what people actually want, there needs to be a properly-built and simple-to-use and non-weird Spellblade-type class, and likewise some kind of unarmed and unarmoured ass-kicker who is not Monk (nor Barbarian), because people aren't looking to be Monks, and I think it was a mistake to bring them back in 5E as the core of the "unarmed/unarmoured" class, rather than a subclass of a new class (but it was part of a pattern of mistakes that early 5E made, basically trying to retain grogs over all others).

I would also help if Wizard could shuffle over to be a bit more Harry Potter-esque. It's actually like, 80% of the way there already. And Sorcerer just needs an actual identity. Right now it's basically a class that only makes sense because of D&D's rules - it's "Like a Wizard, but with spontaneous casting!". Which is a bit pointless. There are token efforts to theme it via subclasses, but they're extremely weak. Again, part of the same "PLEASE THE GROGS OR THEY WILL DESTROY US ALL!!!" attitude of early 5E.
 

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