Bards too strong?

[paragondragon]

We're doing the age of worms campaign, lvl 9 right now. I'm playing a Spellscale, Bard 6/Sorcerer 1/Virtuoso 2 right now. We've just got into the gladiatorial arena and the groups wanted to come talk to us before the fights and make alliances for the battle and what not. I figured, well hell if they're going to line up for me then this will be easy for the fight to happen. Basically, I wanted to fascinate them...I can do three at a time, and then suggest to each of them that they surrender when the fight begins. DM said no that I would be disqualified for doing that. I don't see why or how they would even know that I'm doing that. I mean, sure no body is going to make a will save over my perform +27 check, but they have a good chance of beating the suggestion, which doesn't really mean anything. So I could have taken out half the combatants before the fight but wasn't allowed because I didn't want to be disqualified, and I am the group leader.

Just wanted to get some experienced DM's opinions if I got ripped off or not.

 

[Deset Gled]

For starters, I can tell you that you don't have the ability to do multiple suggestions yet. Mass Suggestion is a lvl 18 bard ability.

Second, remember that Suggestion has a time limitation.If the battle isn't going to happen within the allotted time, the DM was actually being nicer than necessary in telling you that it won't work.

Finally, it sounds like it's against the rules to cast spells on your opponents ahead of time. In this case, it really should be your choice to follow the rules or not. The DM shouldn't forbid you from playing your character the way you want to play him. If you want to take a risk and maybe get disquallified, it's your call. Just don't be surprised if you fail miserably.

 

[Felix]

DM said no that I would be disqualified for doing that.

Was there a general rule against magical compulsions? If there were, and you had been caught, you'd have been disqualified. If there wasn't... well, then the DM made one up on the spot.

Consider this scenario:

Your DM didn't want magical compulsions operating in the arena. But the bard's Suggestion is fairly insidious and difficult to detect, so this did an end run around the DM's plan. The DM wants your group to participate in the arena for plot reasons, but he doesn't want the fight to be a cakewalk. He threatens that by Suggestioning the other participants you'll disqualify yourselves, hoping that you will react as you did. You fight in the arena; he gets to run the big battle he's spent time preparing; he doesn't have to separate what he, the DM knows and what he, the NPCs know. This last one can sometimes be a bit difficult.

It seems likely, and while it suggests that you did get boned a little, it also suggests that it was done to avoid worse complications.

I would, however, tell him you'd like to get some use out of your Suggestions, and if it was the case that he nerfed you out of hand, for him to consider not doing it quite that way in the future.

 

[Felix]

For starters, I can tell you that you don't have the ability to do multiple suggestions yet. Mass Suggestion is a lvl 18 bard ability.

He can, however, Suggestion over and over for as long as the fascinate ability runs, and at that point he can fascinate multiple people (2 at 6th, 3 at 7th). DMs may rule that a Suggestion may only be made once, but that is not a necessary reading of the rules.

Second, remember that Suggestion has a time limitation.

I think the Virtuoso levels increase the Bard's caster level, so the Suggestion would last 8 hours. It would then depend on when the fight began; seemed to me like it was about to begin shortly.

Finally, it sounds like it's against the rules to cast spells on your opponents ahead of time. In this case, it really should be your choice to follow the rules or not. The DM shouldn't forbid you from playing your character the way you want to play him. If you want to take a risk and maybe get disquallified, it's your call. Just don't be surprised if you fail miserably.

Yeah; I think it was the DM who didn't want to see if anyone noticed the Bard's Suggestion, which is harder to notice than other spells (only a Verbal component), and didn't want to seperate DM knowledge from NPC knowledge. *shrug*

 

[Darklone]

Finally someone who notices that bards aren't too weak

 

[wildstarsreach]

Bard's are not weak and the challange for players is to make them count. Personally as DM I would have allowed you to do what you did but you wouldn't have had access to them within your spells time limits. If 3 of them gave up and quit when you first started, then as a referee for the games, that is IC, I would cry foul that something has gone on. That is why you would have wond up disqualified.

Bards are the best party support and versital character I know and I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this may be my future favorite character class. Not for their power but because of the fun as a player that I can have. They are not too powerful.

 

[Artoomis]

We had some issues with the Fascinate/Suggestion bardic powers being too strong. What we did was to have the character get the benefits of the Lyricist Thaumaturge (spelling?) with full bardic progession in exchange for giving up the whole fascinate/suggestion chain.

Basically, that amounts to some additional spells cast and known in exchange for giving up fascinate and suggestion. Seems fair and avoids the problems of a virtually irresistable faacinate/suggestion combo.

 

[nittanytbone]

Bards are very effective against foes with weak will saves that are vulnerable to compulsions, charms, and mind-affecting stuff.

There's a TON of foes that are immune to all of that, especially at higher levels, making bards much weaker.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

If 3 of them gave up and quit when you first started, then as a referee for the games, that is IC, I would cry foul that something has gone on. That is why you would have wond up disqualified.

You kidding, any ref for the arena would have investigated with the first guy who said "I surrender! I... that is... huh?"

The guy is suggesting cheating in a way that would raise obvious red flags. Maybe the DM should have let him do it and take the results, but the DM instead let the player know what the character should have (and got accused of ripping the player off for his troubles.)

As for the title question, no.

 

[paragondragon]

They went over the rules of the arena before hand and there was never anything said about charms, beguiling, or enchanting the other groups before or during the fight. He just wanted us to battle it out...and it was too easy anyways...four groups in the arena and we wiped them all out pretty easily. Wasn't even a challenge without my charming.