Bards - Why do so few people play them?

[MThibault]

Re: Re: Bards - Why do so few people play them?

Anyone else have some funky or offbeat perform choices lying around?

I had a bard/ranger who got a lot of mileage out of Perform (Finger Juggling). He was a professional messenger. He could get a message to anyone, anywhere, whether by stealth or magic, and when he arrived he could fit right in delivering a message to the Mercenary's Guild or presenting an invitation to the Duchess to attend the King's Winter Ball.

Whenever he was faced with stubborn border guards or whomever he would roll three small copper balls around his fingers and "Suggest" to them that "These are not the halflings you are looking for."

Cheers

 

[Belen]

Bards- the greatest class

I fell in love with the bard class in 2E (when they still had good spells) and I continued that love into 3E. Unfortunately, I have not seen 3rd party publishers or WOTC really support the class. I would recommend anyone check out the Complete Bard's Handbook from 2E TSR. It's wonderful with a lot of kits that can be converted to full 3E classes.

Thank god for Monte and the BoEM2. Monte's bard, I feel, is the definitive version and WOTC can only play catch up from this point. Those bards can do a mess load of damage with their spells. Trust me, I have done 100+ points of damage in one round with that Bard. That Bard also has a diverse range of spells, including one buffing spell that can be used for either str, dex or con, and a second that can go to int, wis and cha. Arcane casters from the PHB have to know SIX spells to do the same.

Bard's get a bad wrap. Most GMs never use them right. Heck, I have seen people use a Bard to shine glory on the entire party with a single Ballad sung of the party's exploits. Or the Bard makes and impassioned speach in front of an army causing them to win the day.

Those that love munch combat machines will always use the argument that Bards cannot contribute to combat, which is wrong. I had a GM who felt that way and it ruined the entire game for me.

As for 2E kit conversion, you should see the Blade Bard. The quick and dirty version of my conversion is attached. I have someone playing it now and they love it.

Dave

 

[Zappo]

Am I wrong or a bard 1/sorc 5 that takes the Artist class from Song&Silence gets all the bardic special abilities save knowledge, plus the Artist special abilities, and casts spells as a sorcerer of his character level (minus 1)?

 

[Eudaimic]

I think one of the main problems is that many people shoe-horn the bard into a particular role: that of an annoyingly up-beat, everly optimistic, ruffle-wearing, squeamish pansy, when the bard could be possibly serve other roles. A bard does not even have to be musical; he or she could just as easily recite poetry or give a stirring battle speech or even play comedian and insult the opponents. I think maybe the term "bard" has some stigma to it in gaming circles, and had the class had some other name, it might get more attention.

That's exactly the problem for me. When I think Bard I think singing and dancing fearie who'll get little or no respect and attention in a serious environment.

However, if one were to look at the Bard as a more of a poet/writer (and perhaps with a darker synical side to him), that would help a lot.

For some reason I always get the image of that irritating comic sidekick from Dragonheart into mind when I think about Bards! ARGH!

 

[Henry]

That's exactly the problem for me. When I think Bard I think singing and dancing fearie who'll get little or no respect and attention in a serious environment.

However, if one were to look at the Bard as a more of a poet/writer (and perhaps with a darker synical side to him), that would help a lot.

For some reason I always get the image of that irritating comic sidekick from Dragonheart into mind when I think about Bards! ARGH!

Bards, as well as all other classes, can come in NUMEROUS concepts. It's all about keeping unfettered by one-dimensional thinking, which is very hard for long-time veterans of the game to do.

For a long time now I've wanted to try a Bardic concept of a diplomat.

Imagine a man, in his early middle ages, with well-maincured haircut and goatee, slightly graying, but respectable, with the slightest hint of laugh lines on his face, and a baritone voice that speaks of trustworthiness, and patience. He always seems to be able to make friends, he always has the right word at the right time, and his speaches --

by the gods his speaches! He can talk an enemy out of their harmful intentions, he can inspire troops to righteous bloodthirstiness, and even serious wounds been known to close up at the sound of his nurturing voice! His words, are like words of power. He can simply talk you into feeling well, he can calm beasts with a simple murmur - but can shatter glass and minds in all directions with but one word when he needs to.

He knows how to talk to every soul, and understands the languages of creatures that you never knew had a language. He knows stories of places long gone, and has just the right anecdote at all times to apply to the current situation. He is master diplomat, friend, and ally - but only his lack of desire to conquer prevents him from assuming political power. He is a leader of men and women, but not a ruler.

That's a bard. He doesn't sing, he doesn't dance and play a lute, but the bard class can create this very character I have descrribed.

 

[Sniktch]

That's pretty cool, Henry. The first 3E bard any of my players made was a High Elven diplomat to a great council that was being held in the human lands. He was a pretty sweet character, too, despite having mediocre stats in everything except Dex and Cha.

 

[Storminator]

In a recent battle I had bards with the instrument feat from Path of Magic blowing trumpets from the ramparts during the battle. The only limit on bardic music is who can hear you. The whole battlefield could hear those guys.

I DM a game with a bard and I play in one with a bard (in fact, it seems I rarely play without one. hmmmm) and I like 'em. Neither one deals out damage, but enchantment spells are very nice. In one of my games the soldiers in the army call the bard "Ten Swords" because that's what a sleep spell is worth.

PS

 

[tarchon]

Am I wrong or a bard 1/sorc 5 that takes the Artist class from Song&Silence gets all the bardic special abilities save knowledge, plus the Artist special abilities, and casts spells as a sorcerer of his character level (minus 1)?

Virtuoso?
Well, it's nearly impossible for a Bard1/Sorc 5 to meet the class prerequisites, so, that's not a very realistic case. (A human character with a 16+ Int who spent huge wads of cross class skill points could do it, but personally I think having a 6th level character with hardly any skills besides Diplomacy and Perform outweighs the putative advantage, and then you have a sorcerer who's put one of his best stats on Int.)

Virtuoso also has worse BAB and worse Saves than Bard. The other thing that makes it more balanced than it seems at first glance is really the fact that the prerequisites practically necessitate at least two levels in a class with Diplomacy (6 req) and Perform (10 req), and even then, you would have to devote a large proportion of your skill points to it, along with having a DM who sees nothing wrong with a character gaining like 4 ranks or more in a skill in a single level. This sorceroso pseudo-bard has 5 fewer songs/day than a comparable bard too.

Now, I'm not saying that the class doesn't suck, but to me it sucks more because it doesn't do anything interesting for bards than because of power issues. Like my BAB, Ref Save, and Bardic Knowledge advancement aren't worth trading for a class that really gets no new abilities until the 3rd level.

 

[The Sigil]

Virtuoso?
Well, it's nearly impossible for a Bard1/Sorc 5 to meet the class prerequisites... Diplomacy (6 req) and Perform (10 req)

Nope. It is not nearly impossible. It is impossible.

To have N ranks in a skill (like Perform), you must be at least level N-3. That means you must be at least 7th level to meet the Perform prereq and a Bard1/Sorc 5 is 6th level.

Furthermore, IIRC, the "official word" on skills (and I could be wrong) is that when spending "sorcerer skill points" on the perform skill, you purchase it at half ranks and you can only put Character Level + 3 total points (not Ranks) into it.

Hence, the character goes 4 points at full value (Bard 1) then 5 points at half value (Sorc 5) for a total of 6.5 ranks in Perform. The character has to advance at least another bard level with a 14+ Int and dump all of his/her Skill Points from Bard2 into Diplomacy - or gain 7(!) more sorcerer levels before s/he meets the prereqs... meaning you have a Bard2/Sorc5 or a Bard1/Sorc12.

Not exactly the right way to go about the class, considering you can qualify most quickly with Bard7 (since a Sor5 has only 2nd-level spells, as does the Bard, you lose nothing in spellcastig power) - or better yet, wait a level and go from Bard8 (you get 3rd-level spells - just as though you had gone Brd2/Sor6 - AND you get an additional iterative attack due to your BAB being +6).

--The Sigil

 

[MThibault]

Furthermore, IIRC, the "official word" on skills (and I could be wrong) is that when spending "sorcerer skill points" on the perform skill, you purchase it at half ranks and you can only put Character Level + 3 total points (not Ranks) into it.

Nope, the second part of this statement is wrong. Maximum ranks is based on character level, not class level. Which column you read is determined by whether or not it is a class skill for any of your classes. So if you have one level in Bard you maximum ranks in Perform will always be Character Level +3.

You are correct, however that skill points from sorcerer levels would purchase ranks in Perform at cross-class prices. If a Brd1/Sor 6 had an Intelligence of 16 it would be possible for him to have 10 ranks in both Diplomacy and Perform -- but it would take every last one of his skill points from the sorcerer levels.

Cheers