D&D 5E Basic question - how many encounters per day

[dave2008]

If I may, this actually supports the point I was making. My point has nothing to do with nova-ing, and all about long-rest-recovery resources being more efficient when there are fewer, tougher encounters.

So your players don't nova - prematurely using them up - and yet regardless if you have 3, 1 or 6 they still have resources to do that. That's showing that the long rest resource classes are getting efficient use of their slots even when there are fewer, more dangerous encounters that they don't feel a need to nova.

Again, my point is not about the damage or deadliness side. It is solely about the resource usage side. They are two different topics.

Yes, I meant resource nova.

 

[Blue]

Yes, I meant resource nova.

Yes, and I meant the point you were responding to has nothing to do with novas. Be it a resource nova or ... I guess some other kind.

 

[Oofta]

I agreed that it is a huge problem with 5e design and can really only be countered by the DM mucking with the rules enough to know how to fudge them. Even then I feel like the PCs often go into encounters way too strong and nova their way out and want to rinse, wash repeat. Now, I DO push them on, so running out of spell slots happens, but I swear they'll be 2 encounters in, depleted, and need to rest or they're screwed for the next encounters.

When and if that happens, I just keep the pressure up. Yep, it's not "fair" and it means sometimes they don't succeed at all of their goals. If you don't want to figure out how to balance resources, don't play a caster.

I'm also very up front in my session 0 about how I run games and that they should expect more than 2-3 fights before they get a long rest.

 

[robus]

I agreed that it is a huge problem with 5e design and can really only be countered by the DM mucking with the rules enough to know how to fudge them. Even then I feel like the PCs often go into encounters way too strong and nova their way out and want to rinse, wash repeat. Now, I DO push them on, so running out of spell slots happens, but I swear they'll be 2 encounters in, depleted, and need to rest or they're screwed for the next encounters.

Sounds like a great opportunity for them to be taken prisoner and lose all their stuff...

 

[Oofta]

I just wanted to pipe in with one more thing. Casters going nova and then wanting to rest after an encounter or two has been a thing in every edition of D&D in my experience. Heck, I remember playing one of the old 2E D&D video games and I'd rest after every single fight. Even if the tower was collapsing and rocks falling on your head interrupted your sleep - I'd just hit the rest button until it worked.

So I've never let parties get away with the 5 minute work day in any edition. Well, except higher level 4E because each fight took hours to resolve.

 

[dave2008]

Yes, and I meant the point you were responding to has nothing to do with novas. Be it a resource nova or ... I guess some other kind.

OK, let me clarify. Our group has no issues with playing 1 encounter or 6 encounters in a day. No one feels like they suffer more or less than anyone else whether we have many or few encounters. Perhaps that is because we came from 1e, IDK, but it is not an issue for our group. It is not even something i need to waste thought on as a DM. The amount of fun we have had nothing to do with the number of encounters or resources spent.

 

[tetrasodium]

I haven't encountered these issues, even when we playing RAW, and we rarely have 6-8 encounters per day. We average about 3, but sometimes 1-2 and sometimes 4-6. When don't seem to have the nova issue some groups seem to have. Actually, it must have something to do with my DM style because I have never had that issue in 30 years of playing. I find if the PCs don't know what is coming next, they don't nova unless they are desperate. YMMV,

While the ease of not needing to make an argument might make it tempting to simply pass it off with gm style, it's a problem that too many good experienced gms with no trouble creating challenge in too many other systems have that problem with 5e& I've seen it too many times at too many tables to simply pass it off as a gm problem.

That would be a TPK with my group. The beauty of D&D, every group is different.

Or Think there are a couple better possibilities. In no particular order

• Your players are just bad at whatever they are playing (what's the group makeup & level?).
• Your players are too low level. The system begins breaking down around 5-6 as too many abilities start coming online that work together to make challenges irrelevant up until the point where the system almost immediately switches over to the players just never stood a chance somewhere around 8-12 they've finished & the game crumbles to what might as well be goku the supersaian & kal'el the kryptonian vrs school children.
• Your players are very under equipped. A level 8 party should have at least a few magic items, xge gives some (bad) guidance on it somewhere
• The party makeup is just bad (what is the party makeup & rough levels?)
• Your players are actively fighting the urge to look at the blinding light streaming out from the cracks in the system or you yourself have not noticed them peeking behind the curtain to realize the wizard of oz (ie difficulty) is a farce

You also mentioned "The amount of fun we have had nothing to do with the number of encounters or resources spent. " in another post, & that's true but missing a key part of why the inability to challenge players without resorting to apocalypse engines & other absurdities is a problem. Namely, doing so destroys worldbuilding & anything the party had shepherded into development or forces the gm to end & restart the campaign with new characters just as the party is excited about having their abilities(not freaking capstones8-12 levels away) come online.

 

[Oofta]

While the ease of not needing to make an argument might make it tempting to simply pass it off with gm style, it's a problem that too many good experienced gms with no trouble creating challenge in too many other systems have that problem with 5e& I've seen it too many times at too many tables to simply pass it off as a gm problem.


Or Think there are a couple better possibilities. In no particular order

• Your players are just bad at whatever they are playing (what's the group makeup & level?).
• Your players are too low level. The system begins breaking down around 5-6 as too many abilities start coming online that work together to make challenges irrelevant up until the point where the system almost immediately switches over to the players just never stood a chance somewhere around 8-12 they've finished & the game crumbles to what might as well be goku the supersaian & kal'el the kryptonian vrs school children.
• Your players are very under equipped. A level 8 party should have at least a few magic items, xge gives some (bad) guidance on it somewhere
• The party makeup is just bad (what is the party makeup & rough levels?)
• Your players are actively fighting the urge to look at the blinding light streaming out from the cracks in the system or you yourself have not noticed them peeking behind the curtain to realize the wizard of oz (ie difficulty) is a farce

You also mentioned "The amount of fun we have had nothing to do with the number of encounters or resources spent. " in another post, & that's true but missing a key part of why the inability to challenge players without resorting to apocalypse engines & other absurdities is a problem. Namely, doing so destroys worldbuilding & anything the party had shepherded into development or forces the gm to end & restart the campaign with new characters just as the party is excited about having their abilities(not freaking capstones8-12 levels away) come online.

Same old, same old. I completely disagree. I've challenged parties up to level 20. While I prefer a lower level of magic it doesn't really matter if the PCs are lit up like Christmas trees.

It's not the system that fails, it's the DM that's failing the system. All I use is a couple of the optional rules from the DMG which is more for story pacing than game pacing.

 

[Nebulous]

Sounds like a great opportunity for them to be taken prisoner and lose all their stuff...

Haha. The wizard's spellbook and magic gear was stolen by a dragon after it thought the PC was dead (it dropped him from a tremendous height). It took the whole Lost Mine adventure on a 4 session side quest to get his stuff back. So that's fine, it was fun enough, but I wouldn't want to do it often, taking their goodies.

 

[Blue]

OK, let me clarify. Our group has no issues with playing 1 encounter or 6 encounters in a day. No one feels like they suffer more or less than anyone else whether we have many or few encounters. Perhaps that is because we came from 1e, IDK, but it is not an issue for our group. It is not even something i need to waste thought on as a DM. The amount of fun we have had nothing to do with the number of encounters or resources spent.

"The amount of fun we have had nothing to do with the number of encounters or resources spent." - absolutely agree. Which is why it's confusing when you use the amount of fun your group has to talk about resources spent.

You can have a lot of fun even if the classes are unbalanced. You mention coming from 1e, it might just feel the natural way when you've had so many years of quadratic wizards and linear fighters. Coming from Red Box Basic myself, it was eye-opening how things that felt natural turned out to have a much worse inter-class balance that I expected between martials* and casters once I started pushing more encounters. If 6-8 is the average, that means aiming high as often as you go low. Do you know how casters feel after 13 encounters? That's the same distance over 8 and 1 encounter per day is below 6. At 13 encounters casters feel drastically different.

(Martials* in a broad sense. But classes like the barbarian do very well in a low-encounter-per-day environment. No one considers spending a rage on a tough fight going nova, but it adds a heck of a lot to the class.)

My problem is I don't DM to this number of encounters per day naturally, I have multiple threads about rebalancing around fewer encounters because now that I've experienced it it's noticeable.