Bat Aside vs. solo monster (or last man standing)?

[webrunner]

You had to go to splat books to find it. You didn't find it in core rules and you didn't find it in regular rules, rather in power descriptions.

I don't consider that "support for the concept of a 'dead ally'", I consider it support for a new designer writing new stuff. The PHB and DMG discuss allies that are willing and helpful, not allies that are dead.

Although I would agree that Divine Power is a "Splat book" but one example is from Players Handbook 2, which is the primary core source for the Shaman class.

 

[DracoSuave]

Dead Ally as a mechanic is mentioned in the Monster Manual. Certain undead have the ability to return their cohort back to life once they have died.

It's in the core, gentlemen, and has been since day one.


Also, when the power said 'dead ally' did you understand -exactly- what it meant on first sight?

Yeah?

That makes the power well-written. Poorly written means that the power does not communicate its intent well. Welll written means its intent is clear and concise. And with the general 'Specific beats general' rule going around, if it breaks the rules, then you go 'Oh hey, this does something new' instead of claiming without reason that it's 'poorly written.'

Common sense. This game isn't Magic: The Gathering, isn't a competition. It doesn't -need- perfect concise rules, it's just an overglorified game of make believe.

 

[KarinsDad]

Dead Ally as a mechanic is mentioned in the Monster Manual. Certain undead have the ability to return their cohort back to life once they have died.

It's in the core, gentlemen, and has been since day one.

I don't see it. Undead allies, sure. Not dead ally. Maybe you could indicate a page number and reference.


All I see are things like:

Spawn Wraith

Any humanoid killed by a mad wraith rises as a free-willed mad wraith at the start of its creator’s next turn, appearing in the space where it died (or in the nearest unoccupied space). Raising the slain creature (using the raise dead ritual) does not destroy the spawned wraith.


Skull of Death’s Command (minor 1/round, at-will) Necrotic

Ranged 10; the skull lord restores a destroyed undead minion within range. The restored undead minion’s level must be no higher than the skull lord’s level +2. The restored minion stands in the space where it fell (or in any adjacent space, if that space is occupied) as a free action, has full normal hit points, and can take actions (as normal) on its next turn.


Reanimate (minor, encounter) Healing, Necrotic

Ranged 10; affects a destroyed undead creature of a level no higher than the deathlock wight’s level + 2; the target stands as a free action with a number of hit points equal to one-half its bloodied value. This power does not effect minions..


None of these explicitly indicate anything about a dead ally.


So, are you claiming that a Yuan-ti Malison Incanter can shift the damage from it to a dead ally over and over again? Hmmm. That does not appear to be the intent of the power.

Common sense. This game isn't Magic: The Gathering, isn't a competition. It doesn't -need- perfect concise rules, it's just an overglorified game of make believe.

The "I have common sense on my side of a discussion and you don't" type of claim is pretty weak.

To me, it's "common sense" that allies are no longer allies when they die because they cannot do anything an ally can do. Instead, they are former allies. Common sense.

 

[Flipguarder]

There are specific instances that target or mention for rules "a dead ally" and thus "dead" is a adjetive that an ally can be. I see no reason to remove someone from the "ally list" just because they died.

 

[DracoSuave]

To me, it's "common sense" that allies are no longer allies when they die because they cannot do anything an ally can do. Instead, they are former allies. Common sense.

Alright. Fine.

You can live in a magical faerie world where the idea of a 'dead ally' doesn't exist, and powers that bring them back mysteriously cannot work under whatever rules you think might apply.

The rest of us understand what it means, have no problem executing it, and don't need fifty pages of rules just to cover something as simple a concept as 'an ally who is dead.'

The concept isn't difficult, is intuitive, and even tho you can 'technically' make arguments it can't happen, the fact is you, yes you, still understand what it means, what it's supposed to mean, and what it entails. That makes it well written.

Unless it isn't so easily understood, in which case, I missed the 'How does this power work' threads that must have come up.

 

[KarinsDad]

Alright. Fine.

You can live in a magical faerie world where the idea of a 'dead ally' doesn't exist, and powers that bring them back mysteriously cannot work under whatever rules you think might apply.

The rest of us understand what it means, have no problem executing it, and don't need fifty pages of rules just to cover something as simple a concept as 'an ally who is dead.'

The concept isn't difficult, is intuitive, and even tho you can 'technically' make arguments it can't happen, the fact is you, yes you, still understand what it means, what it's supposed to mean, and what it entails. That makes it well written.

Unless it isn't so easily understood, in which case, I missed the 'How does this power work' threads that must have come up.

Would you fricking stop with the "my way is common sense" and the "You can live in a magical faerie world where the idea of a 'dead ally' doesn't exist" crap.

Seriously dude. Can you not have a conversation without the snark???

The concept is easy to grasp. Stop talking to people as if it were not.

The concept is easy to understand, but it can also be problematic. Allowing a Yuan-ti Malison Incanter the ability to move damage round after round into a dead body is a bit problematic and against the intent of the power. Allowing a PC the ability to get a bonus to hit with Coordinated Explosion because there is a dead body there is a bit problematic and against the intent of the feat. Ditto for using Bat Aside for knocking a foe towards dead bodies as opposed to knocking the foe towards living creatures to knock them down.

Yes, everyone here can understand the concept of doing so. But, that's non-sequitor to the discussion.

The point is that allowing dead bodies to be allies is an issue for some powers and feats and so it should carefully be examined. People shouldn't just go "Well, the concept is easy to understand, so you should allow it in your game". That's an illogical reason to do so.

 

[Flipguarder]

My problem KD is that you seem to have no other reason for why a dead ally is not considered an ally other than "it does weird things to some power." We are working under the assumption that it is because there is nothing that says "while dead you are still an ally"

Without anything to that effect it is clearly a houserule, because the standard definition of the words we are working with would denote that it remains an ally, even while dead.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I would agree that most powers that reference "an ally" have the potential to be abused if allowed to count a dead person as that ally. Sorry, dark pact warlocks...

I would also agree that more precise wording to avoid saying "a dead ally" when the rules want to talk about a corpse that used to be an ally might have been a good idea.

But since a previous thread already established that you are your own enemy and therefore can't end a move in a square that has you in it, the universe that contained D&D with M:tG-level rigidity has long since exploded, and we now live in an alternate universe in which you are not your own enemy, and in which we know what we mean when we say "dead ally" and when it should and shouldn't apply. Or at least most of us do.

 

[KarinsDad]

My problem KD is that you seem to have no other reason for why a dead ally is not considered an ally other than "it does weird things to some power." We are working under the assumption that it is because there is nothing that says "while dead you are still an ally"

Without anything to that effect it is clearly a houserule, because the standard definition of the words we are working with would denote that it remains an ally, even while dead.

How so?

Seriously. It is no longer a creature. How can it be an ally? How can it assist you?

Go look up the word ally. It talks about associations and relationships. How can a former ally still have a direct relationship (yes, it could have an indirect relationship such as a will or something)?

1. One that is allied with another, especially by treaty: entered the war as an ally of France.
2. One in helpful association with another:

There is no "helpful association" with the PC if the ally dies.


Is it Fred lying there dead on the ground? Will it be Fred 10 years from now when it is merely bones? No. It's Fred's body. A portion of Fred. It's missing life and soul and thought, the very things that make it Fred.

The body is only a portion of what made Fred, Fred.

If Fred's brain gets sucked out, again, it will not be Fred, even if one could keep the body alive. It would not be a helpful ally at that point.


If the country of France is totally wiped out, then France is no longer an ally of the U.S. The ground might still be there and radioactive, but there are no living people with which to have common association.

So no, looking at it from a strickly English language definition perspective, the word ally doesn't mean a dead person. When Fred is dead, he is no longer your friend. He was your friend, but now he's gone.

Yes, in a world of magic, one could bring Fred back and one could even do so as part of a contract or arrangement. But that doesn't make dead Fred an ally on the ground.


On a side note, this is one of the issues that I have with 4E. For example, elemental powers that only target enemies in an area like Flameburst Armor. The armor is smart enough to target enemies, but not allies. Huh? Ditto for Fires of Judgment, Blade of Fiery Wrath, Fire Shroud, etc.

There are quite a few area powers that only affect allies or only affect enemies. Sword Burst by a Swordmage. It throws force out, but it turns on and off as the swordmage swings his sword in a circle. Huh?

Yes, one can rationalize any of this, but it just seems convenient that PCs can throw fire and lightning around and it is so discriminatory, even in the dark when the PC cannot see. A PC cannot throw Fire Shroud into the dark and accidently hit an ally.

 

[Flipguarder]

I don't think anything will come from discussing this further.