Batman v Superman (open spoiler thread)

[cmad1977]

Meh. It was fine. Don't really get what it took so much heat for. It delivered what I expected. I would have cut about 30 minutes of the movie but I say that about most films now. I'm also not a real comic book guy so...

 

[trappedslider]

Though I would have forgiven things if, after Lois threw the spear into the water, during the fight Aqua Man had popped out and said, "Hey, do you need this thing?"

yeah,that's what my friend was wondering about too

 

[Manbearcat]

Not going to give my opinion of the movie or any sort of review. I'm just going to hone in one aspect:

'Martha' as linchpin for Bats and Supes and basically the genesis of The Justice League.

Ok. Fair enough. I can buy-in.

But the clumsy, heavy-handed way it was done was rather amateur hour. It should have been trivially easy for a profession film-maker to pull this off in an elegant, minimalist fashion (where the audience derives the connection naturally rather than being clubbed over the head with it).

Take the entirety of Batman's origin. The "Martha" whisper by his father. Zoom in on the black of her eyes until its entirely black. Zoom back out and we're looking at a picture hanging on the wall in the Kent household. We're zooming out of Martha Kent's eyes as Clark walks by and calls out "Ma (!)". Maybe the picture is of Martha and Jon when they were young and simply has their names and the date of the photo.

The audience makes the connection of the centrality of the parents to the heroes and the shared name of their mothers. Good enough.

Give us a brief moment with Alfred conveying Bruce's "survivor's guilt" over his parent's death and that he didn't posses "the will to act" when it all went done (as was beautifully constructed in Batman Begins).

Superman in his ultimate moment reveals his vulnerability and humanity to Batman before the killing stroke. A simple "please" and a "he's going to kill my mother..." That (a) connects him to Batman by disarming the concern of inhumanity and invulnerability and (b) provides the Caped Crusader an opportunity to exorcise some of his own demons surrounding his parents' death by saving Clark's own mother.

Done. We don't need to be hit over the head with Martha references left, right, and center and then have that awkward exchange between Bats and Supes in the pivotal moment.

Good idea. Poor execution.

 

[Tonguez]

firstly BvS is a great Batman movie, I liked that aspect of it and they made things tolerable - dear I say it, even enjoyable!

I said during one of the trailer discussions that I would eat my hat if the actual movie proved my pre-judgement wrong and if BvS had been a Batman movie I would now be looking up Hat recipes. BvS was better than Batman Begins and a worthy successor to the Dark Knight. I didn't get any DK Returns feel from this movie other than Bruce being older and jaded. but Affleck was good, (I never had any concern about that) and the action, espionage and brooding all worthwhile. A Batman-Wonder Woman movie with a Alien Menace plot device would have been worthwhile and I would now be a confirmed fan.

Unfortunately BvS was billed as a Superman film and in that regard it was confusing and uninspiring. I didn't like Man of Steel and Cavill just fails to have any charisma in this role. It could be just that I am still emotionally attached to Christopher Reeves portrayal but I don't think the grim dark vibe works for Superman.
The possibilities of the Senators questions were good set ups for a bit more drama, but then they were ignored in favour of brooding and claptrap. Lois was entirely pointless to the story other than as a plot device and I would have preferred if she was left out entirely and her parts given to either Martha Kent (woman in peril) or Wonder Woman (ie she should have been the heroic spear diver). Either that or actually have Lois be the one who was kidnapped at the end and needing to be saved ie make Lois the key* and not just an also ran (more about that later)

Wonder Woman was wasted in this movie, though the parts she was in shined, she had so much more potential to form an actual relationship with Bruce and Clark and be the bridge that brought them together and helped resolve the story. I would have loved for them to actually show her outwitting Batman (twice - stealing the chip and then putting it back in his car), being the one who gets Bats and Supes to bond and something more for her to do action wise.

Talking about bonding the 'hey both our Moms are called Martha we are like totally blood brothers now dude' was stoopid and unconvincing, and I would have much preferred that Wonder Woman had come in here with her own words of wisdom to sway their male egos.

I actually didn't mind Eisenbergs take on Lex Luthor it reminded me a bit of Gene Hackmans version (and not just the hair) crossed with the mad President Lex, of the cartoon. Speaking of which it would have been awesome to see Lex in his Warsuit and let him slug it out with the team using Kryptonite and Apokoliptan tech (see Darkseid easter egg). Lex did stray too far into Joker territory however and just further underlined that this was a Batman movie with Superman add ons.

The worst add on was of course the whole Doomsday tag (which made a post credit tag obsolete). I would have liked the movie much more if they had stopped with Batman (and co) saving Matha Kent from the bad guys. Bringing in Doomsday was unnecessary, it was spectacle that added nothing to the story and the outcome seemed contrived. While killing him was a surprise of the ' oh they did do it' kind, we know its a shallow death. Also why was Superman able to carry the kryptonite spear? not to mention he had already been hit twice with Kryptonite gas but still managed to shrug it off - was Batman using the weak stuff?.

Reading some critics, it feels like some of them feel left out. Like it was a film with too many winks that only Geeks of at least level 10 could understand.

I think thats legitimate though. I may only be a level 5 geek but the Batman nightmare/vision and the subsequent Flash warning was 'way out there', abrupt and largely meaningless within the context of the movie. We're told that Lois is the key - but the key to what? Throughout the movie I never got the impression Lois was ever in peril and since I don't know what a parademon or an Omega symbol is, theres no context beyond the movie to draw on. At least the original Superman actually had Lois Lane die to push Superman to reverse time for her, this Superman and Lois dilemma was naff (and that also covers the oh she almost drowned but not really scene).

You might argue that its there as a easteregg for the geek viewers but within the rest of the movie I don't think that worked, it just added to the confusion. Warner Bros needs to appeal to more than just Level 10 Geeks and throwing it in like this is a disservice to all viewers.

It was the same with the cameos of Aquaman and Cyborg, they were simply there to tag the next movie and beyond that were meaningless. At least The Flash file could have been tied back to the 'nightmare/vision' and the discussion of 'other Metahumans'...

so overall I did enjoy the movie and that was entirely because of Batman and Wonder Women, overall though too many holes and team Superman fails to inspire

so is my hat safe?

 

[ccs]

Oh, and the whole "Here's an email that I'm going to spend 2 minutes reading and looking at videos, cutting off the dramatic build-up that was happening previously." Marvel knew enough not to rush introducing all their cast in a 2 minute montage.

Yeah, but DC doesn't have TIME to do that. They're 10 years behind Marvel & needed their stuff introduced ASAP, yesterday.

 

[Kramodlog]

I think thats legitimate though. I may only be a level 5 geek but the Batman nightmare/vision and the subsequent Flash warning was 'way out there', abrupt and largely meaningless within the context of the movie. We're told that Lois is the key - but the key to what? Throughout the movie I never got the impression Lois was ever in peril and since I don't know what a parademon or an Omega symbol is, theres no context beyond the movie to draw on. At least the original Superman actually had Lois Lane die to push Superman to reverse time for her, this Superman and Lois dilemma was naff (and that also covers the oh she almost drowned but not really scene).

You might argue that its there as a easteregg for the geek viewers but within the rest of the movie I don't think that worked, it just added to the confusion. Warner Bros needs to appeal to more than just Level 10 Geeks and throwing it in like this is a disservice to all viewers.

It was the same with the cameos of Aquaman and Cyborg, they were simply there to tag the next movie and beyond that were meaningless. At least The Flash file could have been tied back to the 'nightmare/vision' and the discussion of 'other Metahumans'...

so overall I did enjoy the movie and that was entirely because of Batman and Wonder Women, overall though too many holes and team Superman fails to inspire

so is my hat safe?

Lois is what keeps Superman tethered to humanity. It isn't explained in the film, heck we do not even know why they love each other, and those are some of the reasons why the film is so weak, but Lois is important. You might think his mom is also important, but Sups doesn't hear here when she is in danger like he hears Lois.

The problem with the dream sequense, the Flash warning Bats and the leaguer cameos is that DC is playing catch up with Marvel. It wants to build its own cinematic universe in one film, so B v S was a 2 and half hour trailer for the DCverse.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is the spoiler thread. Don't read it if you haven't seen the film. There be no sblocks here!

I very much enjoyed the film. Batfleck was better than I could have imagined (I now can't wait for a solo Batman film!) and, hey, it wasn't all set at night like the trailers make it look!

Not much of the film is actually BvS. A brief 30-second encounter about half way through and a longer 5-10 minute fight later where Bats totally wipes the floor with Supes. He wins, outright. (In fact, does Supes win a single fight in the whole film?) He plans the entire encounter.

Well, against the Warlord, he easily wins. The first encounter with Bats - well, he stops him in his tracks and Batman can't do anything. And of course, Doomsday ends up dead, but it costs Superman his life, so I don't know how you'd count that.

Glad they dealt with Bats' origin story quickly in the opening credits. Took a minute or two, and then done. Has to be there, because not everybody is 40. For some kids this new DCEU is their first introduction.

I think it was primarily there for Bruce's father dying words. "Martha". Which later becomes important when Superman mentions his foster mother as Batman is about to finish him.

Lois was a bit weak. She had to be rescued repeatedly. Did she do anything in the movie, other than get rescued over and over again?

Her part in Superman Returns seemed better. She's not a fighter, but she was a good investigator / journalist. She investigates in this movie, too, but it seems to lead nowhere, really. It seems the critical information - Lex Luthor was behind killing the people in Africa, not Superman - never reaches anyone that could use that information effectively. She could and would have been captured by Lex either way, since she is a known way to get to Superman's attention. Thankfuly, Superman's superhearing is faster than the speed of sound...

Wonder Woman. Awesome. Love the photo from 1918 with Chris Pine as Steve Trevor etc. Looking forward to that film. Not so sure the guitar intro for her was quite right.

I don't know much about her, certainly not that she has been around so long, so that was an interesting information to me. But she seemed mostly there to set up future movies, because she wasn't actually needed for anything. Which isn't to say I disliked the character or thought she was bad. Just that she wasn't really needed.

Supes gets nuked! And does the whole emaciated thing like when he got nuked in TDKR graphic novel.

It it really is DKR plus Death of Superman. The former was great. The latter is where the film loses it a bit, I think. The whole Doomsday fight was a confusing mess of explosions and heat vision and glowing things. Still, I did NOT expect Superman to die (even though I know he did in the comic).

The Batman vs Superman fight was great, though the the Batman vs Mercenaries fight afterwards was better (though it reminded me a lot of the second Bale/Nolan Batman movie). But the fight against Doomsday was just... meh. A series of visual effects. It doesn't help if your villain has no dialog, really.
Also... "Hey, I have this Kryptonite Spear in my city, and I sit in a bat plane. Let's attract the monster that is currently on an uninhabitated island to the city so I can fight it while I am still looking for the spear". That was dumb, Bats. Very dumb.

Over all, a solid thumbs up. I love the Marvel films (well, some of them - AoU was pretty bad!) but I love that this is a whole different take. If Marvel is cartoons, this is Mythology. It's definitely less kid-friendly than the Marvel stuff, but that's OK.

It felt too disjointed, too many scenes that don't really flow together into one movie.
It seems a jump-start to a new DC Universe, sure, but it does so without really telling the full story that was supposed to be in the movie.

There seemed to be rarely real dialogs, with people talking with each other and moving the story forward - people saying their talking point, yeah, but genuine interaction?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah, but DC doesn't have TIME to do that. They're 10 years behind Marvel & needed their stuff introduced ASAP, yesterday.

I suppose they feel like they have to catch up, and don't expect Marvel to ever lose steam. (Or fear that Marvel losing steam means people stop watching Superhero movies all together?). They are rushing things and if they keep doing that, it will hurt them. I think so at least.

 

[delericho]

Lois was mostly pointless, especially her "Hey, we don't need this Kryptonite spear. Wait, . Now I'm drowning." thing.

I was actually okay with that - at the point where she threw away the spear she didn't know Doomsday existed, so it's only use was to kill Superman (which she didn't want).

What I thought was pretty inexcusable, though, was that Batman's plan for dealing with Doomsday was to have him follow Batman back to Gotham, find the spear, and use it to kill him... he does indeed have Doomsday follow him, and then doesn't spend even a single moment looking for the spear.

(I also had an issue with the handling of the Big Rock. Lex notes early on that it's radioactive, and then both he and Bruce are shown handling it with no safety precautions as well. But that's just Hollywood science at work.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I was actually okay with that - at the point where she threw away the spear she didn't know Doomsday existed, so it's only use was to kill Superman (which she didn't want).

What I thought was pretty inexcusable, though, was that Batman's plan for dealing with Doomsday was to have him follow Batman back to Gotham, find the spear, and use it to kill him... he does indeed have Doomsday follow him, and then doesn't spend even a single moment looking for the spear.

Indeed. They even stated that the island of re-entry was uninhabited. And Batman was in his bat plane!
And then he isn't even searching for the spear?

(I also had an issue with the handling of the Big Rock. Lex notes early on that it's radioactive, and then both he and Bruce are shown handling it with no safety precautions as well. But that's just Hollywood science at work.)

Well... How radioactive needs material of unknown/alien origin need to be to not be cleared for transport into the United States by default?
It might not need to be all that dangerous for that.