D&D 5E Battle Master without Superiority Dice (house rules)

[DND_Reborn]

At will trip attack is also really good - though it taking your bonus action mitigates a lot of the things you could do with it.

Overall - I think you've pretty significantly cut down the high celing damage potential of a battlemaster. You've boosted most of the basic non-feated battlemasters -but overall you'll struggle to keep up with a Paladin or even barbarian in damage now. Heck, it's quite possible that a decently played rogue would out damage this - which feels pretty bad IMO.

As I am not very familiar with BM damage potential, I can't really respond too much other than to say while the damage while you have superiority dice would be greater, once you run out my variant should do more I would think? Maybe I am wrong???

shrug I mean you get 4 SD per short rest until 7th, then 5, then 6 at 15th. I don't think you're short of them in most combats. I also don't think they're any more onerous to track than ki points or sorcery points or spell slots or Bardic Inspiration die or any other resource that classes have.

Are you going to re-work all of those as well?

Maybe at our table then it would be different. Monks do run out of ki, casters run out of spell points (we stopped using slots a while ago!), and NO ONE at our table plays a BARD!!!

In general, no I am not a fan of limited resource abilities that don't make sense. Tell me, why are the features for BM in the RAW limited? Other than balance, what is the reason? Can I only "trip" foes so many times? Can I only command an ally 4 times until I rest for an HOUR? Is it that exhausting?

Other things, like spell points or slots, even if I don't completely agree with them, I can understand the logic behind them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Its definitely a nerf disguised as a boost. By eliminating burst use and anything else which uses your bonus action, I'd have chosen to not be a battlemaster if this had been the rule.

I also don't even understand the "hard to track" issue. For who? Who is having a hard time tracking them?

If you can think of a mechanic that is at-will other than bonus actions, I am all ears...

 

[Salthorae]

Maybe at our table then it would be different. Monks do run out of ki, casters run out of spell points (we stopped using slots a while ago!), and NO ONE at our table plays a BARD!!!

In general, no I am not a fan of limited resource abilities that don't make sense. Tell me, why are the features for BM in the RAW limited? Other than balance, what is the reason? Can I only "trip" foes so many times? Can I only command an ally 4 times until I rest for an HOUR? Is it that exhausting?

Other things, like spell points or slots, even if I don't completely agree with them, I can understand the logic behind them.

First of all, I'm sorry that you're missing out on the glory that is the 5e bard.

Are you re-working monk abilities to get rid of ki? Why the Battlemaster and not Monk's Ki?

What is the logic of running out of spell slots/points that is different than SD?

Of course it's about balance, every class feature for every class is roughly balanced. Is it so unbelievable that it might be as mentally tiring to a Battlemaster to maintain both their physical battle but also the overall tactical flow of the battle to command people around or rally them, as it is to expend spell power?

 

[FrogReaver]

As I am not very familiar with BM damage potential, I can't really respond too much other than to say while the damage while you have superiority dice would be greater, once you run out my variant should do more I would think? Maybe I am wrong???

It's extremely rare my battlemasters run out of maneuvers in a 20 round day. Of course I don't use the flashy ones - instead I use precision attack and only when I miss by a certain amount (or think I did, it's possible I can misjudge). I also make sure to have a feat that gives me a bonus action attack - which wouldn't work with yours.

Of course an equally viable alternative is to just load all your maneuvers into the first round to do as much damage as possible. That works pretty well too.

Overall - the ability to choose when and where to do damage is very effective.
Overall - I think I can get more damage out of something like polearm master or crossbow expertise than I can out of your maneuvers.

In general, no I am not a fan of limited resource abilities that don't make sense. Tell me, why are the features for BM in the RAW limited? Other than balance, what is the reason? Can I only "trip" foes so many times? Can I only command an ally 4 times until I rest for an HOUR? Is it that exhausting?

There's a simple answer for that but you won't like it. There is a difference between the fiction and the way the mechanics work. In fiction you tripped enemies only when you found an opportunity to trip them, etc etc. Out of fiction you are the player determine when those opportunities occur within the fiction. As I said, simple solution but you won't like it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

First of all, I'm sorry that you're missing out on the glory that is the 5e bard.

Are you re-working monk abilities to get rid of ki? Why the Battlemaster and not Monk's Ki?

What is the logic of running out of spell slots/points that is different than SD?

Of course it's about balance, every class feature for every class is roughly balanced. Is it so unbelievable that it might be as mentally tiring to a Battlemaster to maintain both their physical battle but also the overall tactical flow of the battle to command people around or rally them, as it is to expend spell power?

LOL don't worry about the Bard... our table finds it pretty much useless. Maybe someday someone will come and actually want to be bard, but not yet.

Spell points are variable (1 for 1st level, 2 for 2nd, etc.) that allow greater flexibility that we enjoy. Also, as I said, the mechanic of exhaustion from channeling spells at least is a viable argument--there isn't one I have thought of for SD.

I started with BM because I am interested in the utility of the maneuvers. I might move on to Monks and try another stab at a drain mechanic for spells instead of spell points/slots.

 

[FrogReaver]

If you can think of a mechanic that is at-will other than bonus actions, I am all ears...

Start of your turn. When you take the attack action. When your first attack hits. When you roll an even number on your d20. Start of the battle. When initiative is rolled.

My personal favorite would be to call them stamina based abilities and give you x uses of your stamina based abilities when you roll initiative that then go away when the fight is over. Not strictly at will, but does give you a reason for believing you can't do them any longer.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@FrogReaver : I think we have 20 rounds of battle in 2-3 encounter typically, and rarely rests of any kind in between them. RAW I can see the BM running out of superiority dice pretty fast, much quicker than a cast can run out of spell slots (or points as we play now).

Your simple answer is not a "likable" one, but at least it is feasible. I'll give it some more thought.

Start of your turn. When you take the attack action. When your first attack hits. When you roll an even number on your d20. Start of the battle. When initiative is rolled.

My personal favorite would be to call them stamina based abilities and give you x uses of your stamina based abilities when you roll initiative that then go away when the fight is over. Not strictly at will, but does give you a reason for believing you can't do them any longer.

Ok, I like that! Hmm.... I might be able to work with that, but if you have to rest after the fight to get them back how different is it that superiority dice?

 

[Salthorae]

LOL don't worry about the Bard... our table finds it pretty much useless. Maybe someday someone will come and actually want to be bard, but not yet.

Spell points are variable (1 for 1st level, 2 for 2nd, etc.) that allow greater flexibility that we enjoy. Also, as I said, the mechanic of exhaustion from channeling spells at least is a viable argument--there isn't one I have thought of for SD.

I started with BM because I am interested in the utility of the maneuvers. I might move on to Monks and try another stab at a drain mechanic for spells instead of spell points/slots.

If you find the 5e Bard useless I would have to assume that you guys haven't actually read the class? It is one of the most powerful and versatile classes in the game, but that is a different discussion.

I say again, what is not exhausting about not only fighting in your own melee, but also running the battle mentally from an overall tactical stand point? In theory that is what the battle master does even if all their maneuvers don't reflect exactly that.

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver : I think we have 20 rounds of battle in 2-3 encounter typically, and rarely rests of any kind in between them. RAW I can see the BM running out of superiority dice pretty fast, much quicker than a cast can run out of spell slots (or points as we play now).

Your simple answer is not a "likable" one, but at least it is feasible. I'll give it some more thought.



Ok, I like that! Hmm.... I might be able to work with that, but if you have to rest after the fight to get them back how different is it that superiority dice?

My idea wasn't resting after the fight. You get a few at the start of any fight and then using more than that meant your stamina was drained to further to do the more complicated maneuvers effectively. Although it will run into some conceptual issues in back to back fights and such.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If you find the 5e Bard useless I would have to assume that you guys haven't actually read the class? It is one of the most powerful and versatile classes in the game, but that is a different discussion.

Read it repeatedly, actually. It isn't the class is bad, just meh. No one cares for the flavor of a bard. I thought about a lore bard once, but like superiority dice, I don't like inspiration dice either... but as you say, for another discussion LOL.

I say again, what is not exhausting about not only fighting in your own melee, but also running the battle mentally from an overall tactical stand point? In theory that is what the battle master does even if all their maneuvers don't reflect exactly that.

I don't see the BM maneuvers as so powerful as to be akin to the power of wielding magic, etc. but that could simply be a matter of preference and perspective.