Battle Standard of Healing and Healer's Brooch: overpowered healing?

[KarinsDad]

I feel Healer's Mercy should be a Daily, like Life Transference now is.

I kind of think this as well, except that it is a Channel Divinity power.

If a Channel Divinity power is strong enough to be a daily, it should be a daily for the use of all Channel Divinity powers.

For other Dailies, they truly are Dailies. In the case of items, if you only get one Daily item at this point, it doesn't matter if you have 3 Daily items, you can only use one.

I don't really like the concept of a multiple Channel Divinity powers where some of them could be Dailies, but because of the ability to pick and choose, the player actually gets to still use Turn Undead or something once the Daily is used.

It then becomes you lose the Daily power, but you don't lose the power "slot".

 

[Ferghis]

Firstly, thanks for everyone's responses and folks weighing in on this. It's easy for me to take my own opinion and assume it's reasonable, so the reality check is appreciated. Also, it's worth noting that the character isn't super-optimized in terms of cleric-ness. It's a ranged elf-bow cleric (with a serious drinking problem). This means that she privileges Dexterity over Charisma. So Astral Seal isn't as effective as in a better build's hands.

Having said that, it's also not an item I would give out as treasure in my campaign because I don't like the idea of someone spending a standard action for a handful of hit points through the encounter so they can save a surge every 3-4 encounters. I'd rather they use that standard action to go hit someone on the head with a long stick.

Setting aside the way in which you run your game (I'm a big fan of long sticks too, especially if they make neat swish noises as they are swung), over the course of a fight while in a six character party, accounting for two healing words, healer's mercy, and, say, one other surge spent in the zone (for example, one second wind or a comeback strike), the battle standard heals 48 hp (4 surges x2 hp x6 characters in the zone). And that's my assessment for an average encounter.

I'm putting this out there so that the issue is clear and you guys don't underestimate the item. I obviously have an opinion on the matter, but I'm not voting here.

It can be argued that Healer's Gloves (or Armor) wouldn't apply to the Healing Standard, as they apply to a target, and you can dispute whether the standard has targets at all.

I don't see anything about a target that would affect whether the gloves would be triggered or not. As I understand it, if one uses a power with the healing keyword, someone recovers d6 hp. I don't think the target needs to be the same as that of another power. If that were the case, wouldn't it say so? As in, "one of the targets of the triggering healing power..."

As far as the Healer's Mercy sidetrack is concerned, I'm not so concerned about it's power. Don't get me wrong, it certainly is powerful, but it's a rare situation where everyone really benefits from the power. There are usually characters either out of range, or not bloodied. Further, it's less healing than healing word, it also uses up any other Channel Divinity powers, and it leaves the cleric weakened. Again, I do agree that it's powerful, but less than many other powers that have come out recently that have folks clamoring about power creep. But I've dipped all too far into that sidetrack... Back to the issue at hand.

 

[BobTheNob]

With regards healers mercy and regaining use via medics mace. We have always played that items that regain channel divinity means that you get the re-use of the channel divinity option, but that does NOT mean that you can re-use an expended power. i.e. it allows you to use a channel divinity power you had not previously used.

That wasnt a house rule, simply how we interpretted the rules. Does anyone know a specific reference that states the regaining of channel divinity means the reseting of an already used power?

 

[Infiniti2000]

...over the course of a fight while in a six character party, accounting for two healing words, healer's mercy, and, say, one other surge spent in the zone (for example, one second wind or a comeback strike), the battle standard heals 0 hp (48 surges x2 hp x6 characters in the zone). And that's my assessment for an average encounter.

I'm putting this out there so that the issue is clear and you guys don't underestimate the item.

Impossible to underestimate 0 hp!

Assuming your typo is fixed to some nonzero value, I don't understand the math. 48 surges sounds like a huge number for an average encounter. My opinion would be more on the lines of (at most) 2 surges per ally, so it would be 2x6x2=24 hit points. Spread this out of an encounter is not a big deal for the loss of a standard action and the potential loss of the item (flee much? bad guys steal it?).

 

[keterys]

I don't see anything about a target that would affect whether the gloves would be triggered or not. As I understand it, if one uses a power with the healing keyword, someone recovers d6 hp. I don't think the target needs to be the same as that of another power. If that were the case, wouldn't it say so? As in, "one of the targets of the triggering healing power..."

That is not what the Healer's Gloves or Healer's Armor do, which is why I singled out those. Instead, they increase the healing amount to a target of the healing. The healing standard has no targets, ergo there is no one to give the healing to - further, it gives the d6 when you use the power, which you do when you plant the banner, not when someone spends a healing surge in it. I'd let it work at my table to give a d6 out to one person healed per encounter probably cause sure whatever, but if I had to adhere to a strict RAW interpretation, I'd rule otherwise and it would do nothing in this instance.

I've seen the healer's standard used with bonuses of up to 6, and it's not broken even then. Out of combat it's a feature. In combat, it's a standard action that covers only one section of the battlefield, and standard actions are big deals. If you guys are spending 8 surges per battle... that's probably more than a little crazy, probably a lot of the standard's splash healing is going to waste _or_ the party is taking more damage in the first place so they can cluster near to it. But sure, in that case it heals twice as much. Given they needed 8 surges in the first place, apparently it was warranted

 

[Mengu]

over the course of a fight while in a six character party, accounting for two healing words, healer's mercy, and, say, one other surge spent in the zone (for example, one second wind or a comeback strike), the battle standard heals 0 hp (48 surges x2 hp x6 characters in the zone). And that's my assessment for an average encounter.

Number of characters in the zone is irrelevant. If 6 surges have been spent in an encounter, a character gets 12 HP. Depending on your level/role, that's about the value of a surge in mid-heroic. Adding in over healing, wasted healing, etc, this number can go down a lot. Some encounters we have almost all the damage focused on 2 characters or so, and everyone else goes without a scratch. Half the characters in the party typically end the day with 3-4 healing surges left, so saving a surge here and there is pretty meaningless for those characters. If your Ranger always ends the day with 0 surges, and this item prevents that, great, you've found a use for the item.

To me, it's a waste of a standard action, when you could be chucking a Lance of Faith to dish out some damage, and give your barbarian a bonus to hit with his charge (I consider this a much better use of a first round action than planting a standard). If combat lasts 6 rounds, do you really want to waste 1/6th of your actions on this?

This outlook changes a bit if you have a campaign where every fight is a level+4 encounter, and you're typically fighting 1 encounter a day, with each fight lasting 15-20 rounds. In that sort of game, 1 standard action to plant the standard is probably a lot more worthwhile.

 

[KarinsDad]

As far as the Healer's Mercy sidetrack is concerned, I'm not so concerned about it's power. Don't get me wrong, it certainly is powerful, but it's a rare situation where everyone really benefits from the power. There are usually characters either out of range, or not bloodied. Further, it's less healing than healing word, it also uses up any other Channel Divinity powers, and it leaves the cleric weakened.

Yeah, I don't see that at all.

A smart player will move his PC to where most other PCs are in range. Most encounters are not in massively large areas where the PCs spread all over the map and tactically, it is a bad idea to get too far from the Cleric, even if the map is large.

Other PCs might or might not be bloodied, but that is irrelevant. The power is best used when a majority of PCs are bloodied, so again, a smart player will wait to do Healing Words until after multilple PCs are bloodied and then do Healer's Mercy instead.

It's actually more healing than Healer's Word. It still gains the Cleric's Wisdom bonus and many other bonuses, it just does not gain the D6's for Healer's Word itself. So, healing 3 PCs for 5 + ~10 hit points (in the example above with Wis 18 and a Healer's Brooch) is much better than healing 1 PC of 8 + ~10 hit points with Healing Word. 2.5 times as much better. On the same round, the Cleric can then use a minor action to throw a Healing Word at any of the PCs that is still bloodied.

It gets even better with powers like Beacon of Hope, etc.

The Channel Divinity loss is mostly irrelevant. When PCs have an option or power 1 or power 2, it's not that they are giving up power 2 to use power 1, it's that they are MORE flexible than other PCs who do not have a choice of which of 2 powers to use. Channel Divinity is powerful because it gives more options. One cannot view it as Channel Divinity is weak because it gives more options.

The Cleric being Weakened is also a pretty minor limitation considering how much healing Healer's Word does. There are a lot of Cleric powers like Hymn of Resurgence or Astral Seal where Weakened does not really impact the Cleric on the next round that significantly.

All in all, people who downplay the usefulness and power of Healer's Mercy are not having their players use it effectively in the game. It can be absolutely overwhelming and I wouldn't be surprised if WotC does nerf it someday.

 

[Ferghis]

Impossible to underestimate 0 hp!

Assuming your typo is fixed to some nonzero value, I don't understand the math. 48 surges sounds like a huge number for an average encounter. My opinion would be more on the lines of (at most) 2 surges per ally, so it would be 2x6x2=24 hit points. Spread this out of an encounter is not a big deal for the loss of a standard action and the potential loss of the item (flee much? bad guys steal it?).

Gah! I'm a mistyping fool. I meant to type that it heals 48 hp over the course of the encounter if one non-clerical surge (in addition to the three clerical ones) is triggered in a party of six characters. Read the property. It says "you and all allies.." Every ally in the zone gets one hp whenever anyone spends a surge. With the Brooch, two hp. Therefore, each of six characters recovers two hp each time someone spends a healing surge in the zone. That's 12 total hp recovered per surge. Four surges, 48 hp.

Which, at level 4-5, which is where we are, is not insignificant.

Yeah, I don't see that at all.

I'll agree to disagree. BTW, my point about healing word healing more was in reference to a single target. I should have been more specific.

EDIT: And I totally forgot to mention that Healer's Mercy is a Standard Action. Healing Word is a minor.

 

[Mad Hamish]

We've got a character who's built up so that each healing banner does 8 points of healing per healing surge used. (No I don't know what items he uses)

It's not uncommon for his initial round to be spent planting a banner and action pointing to plant another one.
On particularly tough fights he might put another couple out.
Last session we had 3 encounters merged into 1 and we ended up with 5 banners out and active, giving us 40 points of healing any time that a healing surge was used.
Given potions of resistance, potions of clarity and all the other ways of spending healing surges to power magic items it gets somewhat silly.

Not to mention that he carries 20 of them so after combat it's 1 healing surge to heal the entire party fullly. (Note that they are extremely cheap once you get up a few levels,petty cash levels really)

I personally don't think that the items like Healer's broach should apply to the standard because you aren't using a power to heal people, you're planting a banner which does the healing.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'll agree to disagree. BTW, my point about healing word healing more was in reference to a single target. I should have been more specific.

EDIT: And I totally forgot to mention that Healer's Mercy is a Standard Action. Healing Word is a minor.

Yup, Healer's Mercy is a Standard Action. So is the Battle Standard. Your point?


You seem to not see the forest for the trees here.

Yes, the Battle Standard combined with the Healer’s Brooch will double the healing of the Battle Standard.

And yes, the Battle Standard could do a lot of healing. Without other healing powers, that's a max 2 healing words + 5 Second Winds = 7 * 5 PCs = 35 extra points of healing by itself, 70 extra points with the Brooch. In a group of 5 4th level PCs, that's nearly half of their total hit points.

It can heal even more in a really nasty fight with other healing being thrown around. But typically, not everyone uses their Second Wind in a fight. For that to occur, it has to be the Fight of the Century. With that much healing in a group, most players do not use their Second Winds most encounters, they are too busy attacking. They only all use their Second Winds in really serious encounters where the Cleric cannot heal them for one reason or another.


You were claiming that a downside of Healer's Mercy was that everyone had to be within 5 of the Cleric. A greater downside applies to the Battle Standard since everyone has to be within 5 of the Standard for the ENTIRE encounter for all of that extra healing that you are concerned about.

That's much more unlikely than being within 5 for a single round, plus the Standard might not be standing upright in a square for an entire encounter (i.e. PCs might gain healing before the Standard is used, or a foe might take the Standard out of the ground, or the Cleric might not use the Standard at all since its healing is slow and gradual compared to many heal options that are faster, the DM dice could get hot and he has to heal and heal NOW).


You are concerned about these two items being used together. It is a valid concern. I think they are very potent together, but not necessarily broken. The healing is gradual and enemies can do something about it.

Healer's Mercy is a greater concern. I've seen it in my PBP game heal 104 points in a single round. That's a much bigger concern than healing 70 points over an entire encounter assuming everyone uses their Second Wind.

Both are out of wack, but the enemies can do something about the Battle Standard. They cannot do much of anything about Healer's Mercy except watch the Cleric push the reset button on the entire encounter.