Battle Standard of Healing and Healer's Brooch: overpowered healing?

[Ferghis]

Yup, Healer's Mercy is a Standard Action. So is the Battle Standard. Your point?

Only to clarify: I was referring to the fact that, in my opinion, Healer's Mercy is not so overpowered as some here argue. But I'm done derailing my own thread, since evaluating Healer's Mercy's alleged overpowerdness is only remotely related to the item combo at issue.

Your on-topic point, KarinsDad, on the other hand, is well received. Thanks.

 

[KarinsDad]

We've got a character who's built up so that each healing banner does 8 points of healing per healing surge used. (No I don't know what items he uses)

It's not uncommon for his initial round to be spent planting a banner and action pointing to plant another one.
On particularly tough fights he might put another couple out.
Last session we had 3 encounters merged into 1 and we ended up with 5 banners out and active, giving us 40 points of healing any time that a healing surge was used.
Given potions of resistance, potions of clarity and all the other ways of spending healing surges to power magic items it gets somewhat silly.

Not to mention that he carries 20 of them so after combat it's 1 healing surge to heal the entire party fullly. (Note that they are extremely cheap once you get up a few levels,petty cash levels really)

If zones overlap and impose penalties to the same roll or score, creatures in the overlapping area are subject to the worst penalty; the penalties are not cumulative. Similarly, a target in the overlapping area takes damage from whichever zone deals the most damage, regardless of damage type.

Sorry, but your DM is a wuse.

The intent of this rule was to prevent multiple zones of the same type stacking, it just was not clearly spelled out.

I personally don't think that the items like Healer's broach should apply to the standard because you aren't using a power to heal people, you're planting a banner which does the healing.

Maybe it shouldn't, but by RAW it appears to do so:

"When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points"

Using the Standard is using a power and it is a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points. This says nothing about the power having to enable hit points right away or the PC actively doing it.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Sorry, but your DM is a wuse.

I'm not going to disagree there.
There was an Iron Kingdom's campaign which had huge abuse of the alchemy rules and feats that allowed a character to make and sell several million gold pieces worth of acid....

The intent of this rule was to prevent multiple zones of the same type stacking, it just was not clearly spelled out.

Except that it's not multiple auras doing damage or imposing penalties. It's multiple banners so the rules as written don't cover it.

But I think I'll use that approach when I run a campaign to avoid the same problem happening.

Maybe it shouldn't, but by RAW it appears to do so:

"When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points"

Using the Standard is using a power and it is a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points. This says nothing about the power having to enable hit points right away or the PC actively doing it.

I hadn't noticed the wording there.

 

[FireLance]

Just to continue the healer's mercy sidetrack for a little longer:

Healer's mercy is one of those powers which gets better the worse the state the PCs are in. It is a tide-turning power which increases the PCs' ability to recover from setbacks and swing the advantage back to them. The power is balanced on the assumption that the full scale of its potential effect will only rarely be utilized.

Hence, this power is more balanced in a campaign which features more scripted encounters because the DM is in more control of when the power's full effect will be realized. In such campaigns, it can even act as a "safety net" for the times that the DM misjudges the encounter difficulty, or the players have a run of bad luck.

This power would be less balanced in a "sandbox"-style campaign where the players are more in control of the encounters they engage in because they can deliberately choose to take on tougher encounters and earn greater rewards.

 

[KarinsDad]

Except that it's not multiple auras doing damage or imposing penalties. It's multiple banners so the rules as written don't cover it.

Yup, I agree.

However, if you look in the PHB, there are very few zones that heal. And even those that heal tend to harm as well.

I think the designers were mostly thinking that zones would create difficult terrain or harm when the PHB was written and just didn't realize that zones could be any effects, not just penalities and damage.

 

[Jhaelen]

Incidentally the Battle Standard has been the first magic item my players found. The bard player seems to love it. It's also a big group (seven players) with three leaders.

I didn't feel it was overpowered but none of the leaders is really a dedicated healer (and of course no Healer's Brooch was involved yet). I think it's fine, nonetheless.

 

[Zinovia]

I don't believe that the effects of the Healer's Brooch and the Battle Standard of Healing would stack. The Healer's Brooch effect is triggered when you use a power, and using an item is not the same as using a power. Even if I did allow item powers to count for that purpose, you only use the item on the round that the standard is planted. The rest of the encounter, there is a zone effect around the standard, but no one is using a power. So no, they don't stack.

I agree that the guy allowing multiple Battle Standards of Healing to stack with each other is a wuss. Zone effects of the same type don't stack, despite the poor wording of the rule. So all you could do with multiple standards would be to increase the area covered by the effect; it wouldn't cause cumulative healing. Each standard is still only triggered when someone in *its* zone heals, granting people within 5 squares of it a point of healing.

As for Healer's Mercy, it is a powerful effect, and could well change the encounter substantially. It's stronger than most other Channel Divinities, many of which are extremely situational. Had it been a daily power, it would have made a nice ace in the hole to pull out when things were looking tough. As an encounter, it's more like a "Get Out of Death Free!" card that can be played every fight. Healer's Mercy has the potential to provide a *lot* of healing once you've stacked your bonuses onto it, although some of it is likely to be wasted due to people being out of range, or not bloodied. Smart players could get some serious mileage out of it.

If you feel it's being overused, the ways to counter it are to try and spread people out, forcing them more than 5 squares away from the cleric if possible. Have a character grabbed and pulled away while others are engaged with foes and can't follow easily. Take advantage of the fact that there are likely to be several bloodied PC's while the cleric is waiting for an optimal time to use Healer's Mercy. Target one of the bloodied PC's with some focus fire and take them out. Hit them with a big area attack while they are all near the cleric and hurt, preferably one that targets enemies only, or to which the bad guys are mostly immune.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't believe that the effects of the Healer's Brooch and the Battle Standard of Healing would stack. The Healer's Brooch effect is triggered when you use a power, and using an item is not the same as using a power.

Battle Standard of Healing Level 3 Wondrous Item
Power

When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points

Emphasis mine. The fact that it is an item power instead of a class or racial or any other type of power doesn't matter.

If you feel it's being overused, the ways to counter it are to try and spread people out, forcing them more than 5 squares away from the cleric if possible. Have a character grabbed and pulled away while others are engaged with foes and can't follow easily. Take advantage of the fact that there are likely to be several bloodied PC's while the cleric is waiting for an optimal time to use Healer's Mercy. Target one of the bloodied PC's with some focus fire and take them out. Hit them with a big area attack while they are all near the cleric and hurt, preferably one that targets enemies only, or to which the bad guys are mostly immune.

Although a DM could do this, I'm a firm believer that the DM shouldn't have to go out of his way with special tactics in order to dummy down powers, items, feats, or special PC abilities. When a too potent of a game element comes into play, WotC should hit it with the nerf bat (like they have been doing to some extent with the errata).

 

[Zinovia]

I grant that item powers can be used by players, and thus could be considered to be using a power. Still, the only time you use the power of the standard is when you plant it in the ground. Using the item power "creates a zone of healing energy". It is not a "power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points" as specified by the Healer's Brooch, because creating the zone doesn't heal anyone directly.

Even if you did interpret it as a healing power, it would only be relevant during the round you planted the standard, as that is the only time you are using the item power. The zone just sits there for the rest of the fight, or until the standard is removed, doing its thing with no further action needed. You aren't using the item power every time the standard is triggered. You could be dead, and it would still work when your buddy used his second wind.

That's my take on it in any case. I voted "different rules interpretation".

 

[KarinsDad]

I grant that item powers can be used by players, and thus could be considered to be using a power. Still, the only time you use the power of the standard is when you plant it in the ground. Using the item power "creates a zone of healing energy". It is not a "power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points" as specified by the Healer's Brooch, because creating the zone doesn't heal anyone directly.

The only thing the standard does IS to enable PCs to regain hit points. There is nothing else it does.

There are no direct vs. indirect rules here.

Even if you did interpret it as a healing power,

Power (Encounter • Healing, Zone):

it would only be relevant during the round you planted the standard, as that is the only time you are using the item power.

Picking nits are we?

Are sustainable powers able to get bonuses on sustain rounds?

Are until the end of the encounter powers able to get bonuses in later rounds?

Zones are continuous. They are constantly in use.

I think there is a reason WotC used the word "use" instead of "activate".

The zone just sits there for the rest of the fight, or until the standard is removed, doing its thing with no further action needed. You aren't using the item power every time the standard is triggered. You could be dead, and it would still work when your buddy used his second wind.

If a power gives a bonus to Defenses until the end of the encounter, would a feat or item that gives a bonus to that bonus not also be used until the end of the encounter?

That's my take on it in any case. I voted "different rules interpretation".

That's cool.

I don't think RAW agrees with you, but that's ok.

I think the rules are fine, but I do find the combo to be overly potent.