Battlerager Vigor damage bonus

[DracoSuave]

Also ironicly, if you were going for a damage-based build with a fighter, +1 to hit and +1 AC with the weapon of choice is far better than +2 damage.

BRV ain't about damage avoidance or damage dealing, it's about damage mitigation.

 

[keterys]

Nail - how much were you using invigorating powers? How much were monsters you haven't marked also fighting you?

I ask because the BRV I DM for would have had the damage bonus for most of his attacks in the two combats he did (like, not for 5 attacks of 15 or so, and he could have changed his actions to get it on two of those if he cared). He wore plate so it didn't matter, but the feat and AC bonus wasn't really doing that much for him. In fact, he actually failed some Athletics checks by 1 and I don't think any enemy missed him by 1 or 2 that night, and a couple enemies did just avoid him to target easier targets so... I think it was a net hindrance. He really quite likes invigorating powers, though, so he always had a bucket of temp hp.

 

[Garthanos]

Intuitively I feel even for BRV damage boost to do its job well - aiding the Defender role - a boost seems appropriate.
Just starting it at +2 and +3 and reducing that by 1 if you are wearing scale and 2 if you are wearing plate.
I know there are folks that think the thp are enough but... a meat shield works better with a threat factor.

 

[keterys]

I'm pretty sure that battlerager is still pretty good, without adding extra feats and bumping its bonuses.

Remember, you're just trading a single +1 attack with 1h or 2h weapons to get the battlerage benefits.

Ideally, all 3 armor types - chain, scale, and plate - will be a totally valid choice, none inherently stronger than the others. It's worth remembering that plate does cost a feat, so chain + feat and scale + feat are what we should be comparing.

 

[DrSpunj]

Nail - how much were you using invigorating powers? How much were monsters you haven't marked also fighting you?

As the DM for the adventures a couple nights ago I'll jump in and try to answer this. Nail used Crushing Surge pretty much any time an at-will was used; basically every round he wasn't using an Encounter or Daily power. At level 5 that's about half of attacks for these two combats which I think lasted 6-7 rounds each.

We had a new low in the "number of players who made it to the session" this past Wednesday, a whopping 3, so it was Nail's BRV Fighter, a Battle Cleric and a TacLord on the PC team.

For the first battle they were up against a level 9 brute, a level 4 brute and a level 4 artillerist, so only 1 foe apiece. All 3 PCs charged up and Nail was able to keep at least 1 foe marked each round, sometimes two with the TacLord's Commander's Strike and other attack granting abilities. He picked on the big guy most rounds and any temporary hp he had were generally stripped away by the big guy so I think he only got the BRV damage bonus once. There weren't really too many non-marked monsters that could attack him in this battle.

For the second battle the threesome were on a rocky ledge and attacked by 3 Fire Bats (level 5) and a Firelasher (level 8 IIRC). They stayed pretty clumped up surprisingly which allowed a lot of fun strafing runs for me throughout the battle. That meant that he was taking at least one or two extra hits most rounds from non-marked enemies. The only times he got the damage bonus here I think was due to the TacLord's powers.

Ideally, all 3 armor types - chain, scale, and plate - will be a totally valid choice, none inherently stronger than the others. It's worth remembering that plate does cost a feat, so chain + feat and scale + feat are what we should be comparing.

Right, so with the current BRV errata do you feel that chain & scale are reasonably balanced choices for the BRV Fighter? I'm not convinced they aren't, but I do feel the funky chain-related-BRV-tempHP bonus isn't really worth the bother of the bookkeeping it requires. Previously the bonus was always relevant, that is, when Nail hit something the extra damage automatically kicked in, so he could more easily keep track of his damage bonus by figuring it in all the time. Now it's another thing to pay attention to each & every round. "Hey! I hit! So that's +8, oh wait, I have some temp hp so add the extra..."

Bleah. I wish the bonus was somehow...cleaner to implement, less fussiness required. I *do* think the BRV changes are good, that the errata themselves are big step forward. WotC did a great job, IMHO, addressing these issues. But this little bit seems to sit funny with me; I think it needs tweaked somehow, just not sure how.

 

[kerbarian]

The thing that complicates BRV analysis for me is Brash Strike. e.g.

Weapon talent (2h) fighter with scale and fullblade, using Reaping Strike vs.
BRV fighter with scale, heavy shield, and waraxe, using Brash Strike.

Same to-hit, same AC (though the BRV is better against enemies other than his target). The weapon talent fighter gets high crit and +str damage on a miss; the BRV fighter gets THP and +con damage on a hit.

I'd say this comes out in favor of the BRV fighter. However, it's only for at-wills that the BRV fighter can make up the to-hit. On everything else, it's back to the balance of to-hit vs. THP.

 

[mlund]

Battlerage Vigor is a Fighter shtick trying to create a "damned if you do, more damned if you don't" situation for a monster.

The Fighter gets Temporary Hit Points, which reduce the amount of damage the monster can deal to him. Yet if a Mark ignores the fighter he'll suffer from -2 to hit and incur extra attacks. Furthermore, failing to strike the Battlerager means the Battlerager does more damage AND need not use an Invigorating power on his next attack. That'll open you up for even more pain from Brash Strike.

Basically the order of battle should go like this:
- Fighter: Invigorating Strike
- Gain THP
- Monster: Attacks
- If hit, Fighter uses Invigorating Strike again (restoring THP)
- If missed, Fighter uses Brash Strike (dealing more Damage)

It works itself pretty elegantly, at least as it pertains to one-on-one slug-fests between the Fighter and his mark using At-Will powers.

- Marty Lund

 

[Garthanos]

I'm pretty sure that battlerager is still pretty good, without adding extra feats and bumping its bonuses.

Remember, you're just trading a single +1 attack with 1h or 2h weapons to get the battlerage benefits.

Ideally, all 3 armor types - chain, scale, and plate - will be a totally valid choice, none inherently stronger than the others. It's worth remembering that plate does cost a feat, so chain + feat and scale + feat are what we should be comparing.

You are right and the value of feats is a tough one to account for..

Yes we are comparing
plate alone(it cost a feat).
scale+feat
chain+feat+brv damage boost.

Like the barbarian multiclass feat which basically gives me+2 damage...for 1/2 to 1/3 the time(depending on encounter freq)... plus a nice skill... tons of bang and flavor for my feat buck.

So is the rare brv damage boost +1 (ignore axe synergy for the moment because that has its own cost as does the mobility loss from chain.)
Worth the loss of a continuous all the time gain of 1 AC for the scale user?

For many folk the improvement from chain to scale is worth a feat, if that is still true here. then that damage boost needs to be valued compared to other feats (but we cant value it that way... because .. you are only giving up something approximately like 1 nice feat (expertise?) for the entirety of your BRV... so the damage boost alone probably should come out looking shabby unless you also didn't get thp when wearing that scale armor.

I think I am convinced the damage boost might just be appropriately shabby(it seems likely they undermined it on purpose while keeping what it did cleverly the same... but now when it does its thing is more defender like).

If the damage boost is appropriately shabby .. then the scale armor now is more useful than chain..

Did I just die from circular logic?

 

[keterys]

Scale: +1 AC, 1 less check penalty
Chain: +2 damage part of the time - probably between 1/4 and 1/2 of attacks depending on build and party, more threatening OAs and challenges, greater perceived incentive to attack the defender

It's a real choice. I'd not be surprised if it should be increased by tier, though, like most other damage boosts.

 

[Garthanos]

1/4 to 1/2 sounds like a very high estimate... but I would find it reasonably worth it if that is the case. I hate things that are so tactically dependent they are either worthless or great... swingy either by dice or circumstance.

(We have to have some of it or there wouldn't be interesting ie real choices)