Be honest, how long would it really take you to notice all of this stuff...?

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
No, that random frost giant lacks the narrative status. In movie terms, he's a Mook. He doesn't need to stay a Mook forever if the story demands it, but he sure is by default. Major characters carry more weight than minor ones and them more than mooks. And PCs carry more than any of them.
Storywise you're quite right; any roleplayed interaction is almost certainly going to be with Verbrugge rather than his third-right guard. However to me they all carry the same weight - the weight of a big friggin' axe, in the guard's case - once the weapons come out. And it's at this point the guard's already-built-in stats become relevant as well - his h.p., AC, etc. are what they are no matter whether he's fighting a 3rd-level party or a 25th.

Lan-"and I've seen 3rd-level parties dumb enough to try this had the opportunity arisen"-efan
 

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Obryn

Hero
Storywise you're quite right; any roleplayed interaction is almost certainly going to be with Verbrugge rather than his third-right guard. However to me they all carry the same weight - the weight of a big friggin' axe, in the guard's case - once the weapons come out. And it's at this point the guard's already-built-in stats become relevant as well - his h.p., AC, etc. are what they are no matter whether he's fighting a 3rd-level party or a 25th.

Lan-"and I've seen 3rd-level parties dumb enough to try this had the opportunity arisen"-efan
For most cases, just using the stats straight out of the monster manual will yield perfectly fine results. However, those aren't the only way to model that guard, and if modeling him as a decent solo for low level parties will be fun and interesting, that's just fine.

Stats are just a means to an end.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Yup. And if you feel that removes too much agency from your hands, what do you do?


You fix it. Or... talk about it online. Either way, my choice was "fix it", so I decided that rule was stupid, dropped it, and kept on rolling.

Quite right - only in my case, i'd rather the players have the agency to be convinced or not, rather than non-magically mind-controlled, so i'm cool with the rule as is, and in my games intimidate and bluff only applies to demoralize and feinting. If your players are cool with it, rock on.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
All abstractions leak. The way I look at it is the combat system in 4e is designed to model physical confrontations of individuals of relatively similar combat potency in similar numbers. I do not view it as a failing of the system that it does not handle facing a larger number of weaker opponents in exactly the same way it models facing a smaller number of stronger opponents. To my mind, minions and solos are tools to model what happens outside the band of what the combat system was designed for. They are exceptions rather than the rule.
 

pemerton

Legend
Thus to me making it a completely different creature

<snip>

Verbrugge the Frost Giant, sitting on his throne in his glacial hall, has AC -1, 93 h.p., 2 attacks a round at +5 to hit/2d10+8 damage, fights like a 15th-level fighter (or BAB +15, depending on system), cold immunity, and vulnerable to fire.

<snip>

What you're saying is that most of this changes depending on who or what he's entertaining in his court at any given moment; which to me is preposterous.
What can I say? That's not how 4e works - the creature is first and foremost defined descriptively (eg Verbrugge the Frost Giant King, tougher than all the other frost giants), and the mechanics are a set of game-mechanical tools for presenting Verbrugge in the context of a particular encounter.

Describing a game of that sort as preposterous seems to me like saying that it's prepostorous in Go that black plays first, because in chess white plays first. Or saying that it's preposterous in AD&D that rounds are 1 minute long because in Rolemaster and B/X they're 10 seconds long, in 3e, 4e and 5e they're 6 seconds long, and in HARP they're 2 seconds long.

There's no rule laid up in heaven that says that which colour should move first. There's no rule laid up in heaven that tells us how long a round should be in a fantasy combat resolution system. And there's no rule laid up in heaven that says whether an RPG should use its stats to model inherent properties of the fictional objects, or relational properties of the fictional objects - ie relative to opponents in a given scene. Most RPGs, especially more traditional ones, go the first way; but there are also RPGs that go the second way. (Besides 4e the ones I'm famiiar with include HeroWars/Quest and Maelstrom Storytelling. There are also hints of it in Fate and Marvel Heroic.)

If he remembered to put it on this morning his crown also gives him an always-on charm effect vs. other Frost Giants; but he's not very bright and thus forgets to wear it about 1 day out of 3.
This isn't about resolution at all - it's about description. This is orthgonal to the issue of hit points, level, attack bonus, damage and defences, all of which are about resolution and hence are relative (but not independently relative - they change as a whole in quite systematic ways) relative to the opposition.

But if you're asking "Is it legitimate to model the Black Knight without his armour as a lower-level monster, and then send him up against lower-level PCs than might otherwise face him?" my answer is Yes, absolutely.

I did a version of this with Kas: just woken from a long sleep, and hence considerably weakened, I modelled him as a 13th level elite. Whereas at full strength Kas is an epic-tier threat (ie dangerous to PCs of levels into the 20s).

The mechanics are essentially a stripped-down expression *of* the game world's natural laws
Even in gamies like RM, RQ and Traveller I don't think this is correct. In those systems the mechanics model processes, but not laws.

For instance, assuming that your dice are fair then the mechanics for the games I've mentioned make a whole lot of outcomes fundamentally stochastic. Whereas in the real world they are probably determinate, or if they are metahphysically random the elements of randomness are probably not present where they are in the mechanics.

To give an example from the history of physics: statistical mechanics used to understand the behaviour of gases is an excellent model of processes involving gasses, but it is not any sort of expression - stripped down or otherwise - of the physical laws that govern gases.

The way I generally see the die roll described is as some sort of substitute for all the small elements of an action - positioning, timing, etc - that we don't model in our action declaration, movement rules etc. That's fine as far as it goes, but in the "real" world of the game all those things are determinate, and it is the interaction of those determinate factors of the situation that yields the outcome. "Roll a d20" is not an expression or model of the natural laws that govern those ingame processes. Just as statistical mechanics is not a model of the physical and chemical laws that govern gas molecules; it's a model of the processes that large numbers of gas molecules will undergo under certain (normal) conditions.

at the same time are the interface through which everyone involved - DM and players alike - interact with said world and said laws. Even if nothing else was involved, this alone would be reason enough to unequivocally state that those mechanics have to be both consistent with themselves and locked in on (or before) first contact in order to ensure both a playable game and believable setting.
With resepct, this is just asseting one particular preference dogmatically, if no other way of playing an RPG were possible.

The 4e mechanics are consistent with themselves - there is nothing inconsistent about saying that a frost giant of constant toughness can be modelled both as a 17th level standard NPC and a 25th level minion, depending on what opposition it is facing, any more than saying that the same person can be to the east of Seattle but to the west of Boston. And they fully support a believable setting (for some fantasy-appropriate notion of "believable"): it's perfectly believable that a frost giant is a tough opponent for knights errant and the like (ie at a roughly Aragorn/Conan power level) but is a weak opponent for demigods and the like (ie at a roughly Gandalf/Hercules power level).

You may not like the mechanical way of realising, in play, those consistent descriptions. That's fine: there's lots of RPG mechanics I'm not really keen on either. But I don't see what it adds to discussion to describe them as "preposterous" or "incoherent", if all you're trying to convey is "different from what I prefer".
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
Quite right - only in my case, i'd rather the players have the agency to be convinced or not, rather than non-magically mind-controlled, so i'm cool with the rule as is, and in my games intimidate and bluff only applies to demoralize and feinting. If your players are cool with it, rock on.
Oh sometimes they aren't. But I remind them, "Fair is fair". If they want Diplomacy to be non-magical mind control, then it works both ways (and really 3e Diplomacy can be insanely effective as non-magical mind control with a good enough roll).


Also I run GURPS, and the skills in GURPS work slightly differently (but not much). And I'll be running FATE as my next game and that system actually has Social Combat where losing means you lose.
 

Whenever we have these conversations, I'm most struck by how oddly disconnected our perceptions of "what we're actually doing" are. At its core, we're playing make-believe. None of this stuff we're doing is vested with any life except for the life we invest it with. I'm certain (I hope) that we can all agree on this.

However, it seems like there always sprouts up these (borderline impossible to get my head around) disagreements about "when" and "how" these things are given life. I can't see any other answer to the "when" other than when they are introduced to the players, during play. They don't exist in some state of quantum superposition until that happens. This is make-believe. They flat out don't exist until they are introduced to the players, during play. Just because the GM may have some concrete, or even vague, conception of these make believe people and make believe places before they are introduced to the players (during play) means nothing. They don't exist to the players. And they can't exist such that they are "living, breathing" things to the players' characters until they are established in play.

This seems so absolutely fundamental to me but I believe there is, nuanced or not, disagreement on this simple premise. I try to wrap my head around what could lead to this disagreement and it seems that it may stem from an idea that I cannot, no matter how I might try, get on board with; that the "when" occurs when the GM conceives it. The undiscovered places and NPCs, either in the GM's head or written down on scratch paper or in a notebook, actually transcend their nothingness and enter into this state of quantum superposition. They now officially "exist" regardless of their pending status of actually being introduced in play. And so its important that they "have life breathed into them at this point." And that means mechanical iteration.

So...I guess...if you as a player or as a GM hold to this premise, it then becomes paramount that the GM must have each and every thing existing (that may potentially be introduced in play) mechanically fleshed out using some kind of universal "this is the stuff things are made of and these are the processes they are governed by" build mechanics...otherwise...the make-believe stuff that hasn't been established in play to the players (and may very well never be) can't possibly be "real" or "legitimate"...even outside of play.

I wonder if there is overlap between folks who have internalized that premise and the folks who feel that Gods shouldn't be mechanically iterated because they should narrative relevance only, and the moment you invest them with mechanical architecture to facilitate their place in (violent) conflict resolution, their narrative relevance is subordinated to their "target of murderhobo orthodoxy" status. Minion/Mook rules follow similar logic, only working a bit orthogonally. They become such "deltas", relative to the PCs' high status, that their mechanical architecture needs to support that prescribed relevance within the (violent) conflict resolution mechanics, lest they cease to perpetuate their intended genre/narrative/game agenda interests.
 

pemerton

Legend
My agency over Terry is already considerably limited in that I don't get to use Diplomacy (or similar) rolls against the PCs; my only recourse for Terry is to try and roleplay my way into or out of whatever situation I or the PCs want to put him in.

<snip>

One of the things that makes a good director a good director is that she pays just as much attention to the details of the show's bit players and extras as she does to the stars. Same goes here.
I find comparisons between playing a character in an RPG and playing or directing a character in a movie can be awkward, because a movie is typically already scripted, or at least plotted, whereas I prefer that an RPG not be.

No actor in a movie has the type of agency - ie full powers of authorship - that I want players in an RPG to enjoy.

As a GM, my agency operates in respect of background, scene-framing and adjudication of action resolution. And my control of NPCs is in pursuit of each of those things. Although in some ways the output is the same - there is a character who says and does stuff - the rationale behind that output, and the means whereby it is generated, is very different, at least for me.

To make this a bit more concrete: a player generally knows what his/her PC wants, and in play is pursuing that goal. As GM I may or may not know what an NPC wants - that can vary quite a bit - but in play I am not trying to bring it about that the NPC gets what s/he wants. That information about the NPC is a piece of backstory that can play a role in scene-framing or action resolution. But it is not a reason for me to adjudicate action resolution one way rather than another; and I might frame a scene with the idea that it will show up the futility of the NPC's desire just as much as framing a scene in which the NPC might achieve his/her desire. Whereas it would be very unusual for a player to declare an action with the aim of having his/her PC thwarted in his/her goals.
 

pemerton

Legend
None of this stuff we're doing is vested with any life except for the life we invest it with. I'm certain (I hope) that we can all agree on this.

However, it seems like there always sprouts up these (borderline impossible to get my head around) disagreements about "when" and "how" these things are given life. I can't see any other answer to the "when" other than when they are introduced to the players, during play.

<snip>

I try to wrap my head around what could lead to this disagreement and it seems that it may stem from an idea that I cannot, no matter how I might try, get on board with; that the "when" occurs when the GM conceives it. The undiscovered places and NPCs, either in the GM's head or written down on scratch paper or in a notebook, actually transcend their nothingness

<snip>

They now officially "exist" regardless of their pending status of actually being introduced in play. And so its important that they "have life breathed into them at this point." And that means mechanical iteration.
I think you are right to identify the contrasting views, but I'm not sure you've hit on some of the reasons. (At least, not in this post. I think you yourself are aware of them.)

If you look at my recent Lewis Pulsipher thread, you can see a very good gameplay reason why, for a certain playstyle, game elements need to have at least some mechanical realisation in advance of being encountered by the PCs: because in gamist exploration play, part of the challenge for the players is to use information-gathering techniuqes (eg detection spells) to work out what is where, and how tough it is, in order to maximise their ability to exploit (via their PCs) the ingame situation.

A different instance of the same phenomenon is found in Gygax's pursuit rules in his DMG, which - in stating the algorithm for determining whether or not monsters pursue fleeing PCs - gives as the first step "The monsters will act as the DM has noted in his/her dungeon key". This fact about the gameworld was set in advance, when the GM wrote up the dungeon, and was a potential object of inquiry for the players (eg via ESP, Commune etc).

Flexible backstory, of the sort I use, is anathema to this Gygaxian/Pulsipherian style of play, because flexible backstory keeps the pressure on the PCs, and hence the players, regardless of the choices they make! (Of course, those choices change the fictional content of the pressure.) Which is great for thematic play, but tantamount to cheating in gamist exploration play.

But of course this Gygaxian/Pulsipherian technique isn't about establishing a "living, breathing world". It's about posing a certain sort of challenge.

I'm not sure when the move to "living, breathing world" happened. I'm guessing it became widespread in the early to mid 80s. To me, it seems like a case of continuing to follow practical advice given by Gygax, Moldvay etc (eg write stuff up and record it in the GM's notes) but changing the rationale - it's no longer to support gamist exploration play, but rather for some other purpose. What I personally don't have a great handle on is what that other purpose is: it's to do with a certain sort of immersionist verisimilitue (including, perhaps, for the GM in the course of actua play!), but I'm probably not the best person to describe it.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Whenever we have these conversations, I'm most struck by how oddly disconnected our perceptions of "what we're actually doing" are. At its core, we're playing make-believe. None of this stuff we're doing is vested with any life except for the life we invest it with. I'm certain (I hope) that we can all agree on this.

However, it seems like there always sprouts up these (borderline impossible to get my head around) disagreements about "when" and "how" these things are given life. I can't see any other answer to the "when" other than when they are introduced to the players, during play. They don't exist in some state of quantum superposition until that happens. This is make-believe. They flat out don't exist until they are introduced to the players, during play. Just because the GM may have some concrete, or even vague, conception of these make believe people and make believe places before they are introduced to the players (during play) means nothing. They don't exist to the players. And they can't exist such that they are "living, breathing" things to the players' characters until they are established in play.

This seems so absolutely fundamental to me but I believe there is, nuanced or not, disagreement on this simple premise. I try to wrap my head around what could lead to this disagreement and it seems that it may stem from an idea that I cannot, no matter how I might try, get on board with; that the "when" occurs when the GM conceives it. The undiscovered places and NPCs, either in the GM's head or written down on scratch paper or in a notebook, actually transcend their nothingness and enter into this state of quantum superposition. They now officially "exist" regardless of their pending status of actually being introduced in play. And so its important that they "have life breathed into them at this point." And that means mechanical iteration.

So...I guess...if you as a player or as a GM hold to this premise, it then becomes paramount that the GM must have each and every thing existing (that may potentially be introduced in play) mechanically fleshed out using some kind of universal "this is the stuff things are made of and these are the processes they are governed by" build mechanics...otherwise...the make-believe stuff that hasn't been established in play to the players (and may very well never be) can't possibly be "real" or "legitimate"...even outside of play.

I wonder if there is overlap between folks who have internalized that premise and the folks who feel that Gods shouldn't be mechanically iterated because they should narrative relevance only, and the moment you invest them with mechanical architecture to facilitate their place in (violent) conflict resolution, their narrative relevance is subordinated to their "target of murderhobo orthodoxy" status. Minion/Mook rules follow similar logic, only working a bit orthogonally. They become such "deltas", relative to the PCs' high status, that their mechanical architecture needs to support that prescribed relevance within the (violent) conflict resolution mechanics, lest they cease to perpetuate their intended genre/narrative/game agenda interests.

I use a mid-point. Items become concrete when they begin to inform the campaign -- the players may not have been introduced to the creature/item but its form and nature starts to become less amorphous once its nature affects the world in ways the PCs can notice. The players may not be introduced to it until much later, depending on player interest, observation, and luck.
 

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