Bear's Heart Spell Question?

[SteelDraco]

That would decrease the usefulness of the spell quite a bit. You'd be more likely to survive the fight itself, only to stand a pretty decent chance of dying if you didn't get immediate aid after the battle. Temporary hit points are REALLY useful, and I like seeing the mechanic used.

I also don't really like making a new kind of extra hit points - what you're describing would be effectively a Con increase without all the other stuff (Fort increase, ability checks, etc), while temp hit points are already well-described.

 

[Darklone]

Can you imagine how a lvl7 spellcaster with some puny level1 fighter henchies could kill a lvl5 group without problems due to this spell?

I think it's a little bit too tough.

 

[Firzair]

Of course, Mass Aid would probably be balanced as a 3rd level spell. . . so the 5th level altered version of Bear's Heart would very rarely see use. A 9th level cleric can afford to cast quite a few Bull's Strengths so the strength just does with one 5th level slot what would otherwise be done with several 2nd level slots. The temporary hit points seem like the real attraction of the spell. And 1d8 temporary hit points doesn't seem so impressive when compared to -1 to hit, damage, saves and skill checks for all your enemies (which is what you get with Prayer).

I haven't had a chance to play with Bear's Heart myself but, even with the quadratic effect, it doesn't seem to blow spells like Flame Strike, empowered Dispel Magic, Spell Resistance, Wall of Stone, and Summon Monster V out of the water. I would certainly consider the opportunity cost before preparing it for my cleric or asking the party's cleric to prepare it.

Sorry to interrupt this thread, but an empowered Dispel Magic won't work or will it? I always thought that the checks for Dispelling can't be altered by metamagic.
If you could empower it, who would use Greater Dispel Magic? Empowered it would give (1d20+9)x1.5 (9th level caster) for a range of 15 to 43, that's more than Greater Dispel yields when cast by 14th level caster.

Greetings
Firzair

 

[Kraedin]

Empower Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

 

[Darklone]

Hmmm.... 15 lvl 1 warriors, 1 lvl7 cleric with beastmaster domain, one lvl5 cleric with prayer and bless... Perhaps magic domain to cast a haste scroll on his comrade... I still need a bard for another +1 to hit and damage...

Let's see how my lvl5 group will fare against them

 

[trentonjoe]

I DMd a fairly extensive campaign, with the druid making good use of Bear's Heart - and I found it to be pretty powerful. I never quite decided it was too powerful - but I certainly considered it.

The STR bonus isn't really the issue, because at that level the fighters all have STR boosting items that don't stack with it - but that's an awful lot of HP to wear through. And the penalty doesn't really apply afterwards.

I agree with Mr. Wombat. What I have found is that this spells allow non fighter types to be successful in combat. I have a 3/5/3 thief/mage/paladin who likes to swing his sword around but as an 11th level character with only 55 hit points, I don't last long. When the local cleric bear's hearts our party the +2 to thit, +2 damge and 35 or so extra hit points helps me much more than the 11th level fighter with 100 hit points and + a gazillion ot hit.

 

[Kyramus]

It is powerful, but I don't think it is overpowered.

an encounter that challenges the party uses far more than 20% of their resources. Spells are resources. if the cleric uses spells repeatedly, he is using up his resources.

what happens if he can't sleep that night, or there are interruptions?

if the combat keeps coming how many bears heart can he belt out?

In the end it's all a matter of logistics.

If the pcs use it against a recurring opponent, the recurring opponent will know the strategy and willd evise a way to negate it in the long run. IE anti magic field or some other way to negate the buff spells.

 

[Savage Wombat]

A consensus seems to be building - the spell is "powerful, but not too powerful."

SteelDraco suggested boosting it to 5th - and considering he's the one that tested it in my game, he certainly knows what he's talking about.

Others have suggested increasing the penalty, or limiting the number of targets.

One could also make the spell more expensive - like by having a rare component or something. Not too rare, but not cheap.

So, do you think one of these fixes is needed, and which one?

I'd probably go with increasing the penalty slightly in some fashion, like the fatigue someone suggested. Subdual damage is just too easily fixed, but with fatigue at least you need a nap.

 

[Stalker0]

How about material component: a bear's heart

 

[Darklone]

Still beating that heart?

Hehehehe. Well. My gaming group right now consists of 9 players. Such a spell is too powerful for them, IMHO it was balanced for the iconic group of wizard, fighter, cleric and rogue.