D&D 5E Beast master wants to use pet to get +5 to passive perception

[Lyxen]

I'm pretty sure that sentence says what @iserith is saying.

Good for you, pray tell how you arrive at this conclusion. Please let me know how you deduce that the characters don't have a passive perception when the sentence actually tells you that they have one, just that it does not contribute to the group's success.

 

[Iry]

This is not a marching order, they are not even marching, some of them are not even moving, while others are. Pray tell where are the ranks in this "marching order", as described in the "marching order" section of the travelling rules ?

This is a totally standard play loop, the characters are not travelling and in particular not at any sort of pace. If you think they are, please let me know, I'd be interested to see which one and why.

Yes it is, yes they are, doesn't matter. Their ranks are however you want to orient yourself, much like Ender Wiggins. If you decide the exit is Front then it is, or you could decide the exit is Back, or accept that it doesn't have to have specific names and just have the ranks be Exit > Sarcophagus > Other Side Of Room. Don't get hung up on hyper specific details like the word "Travel" or the name "Front/Middle/Back" or the term "Group."

Yes, it's a totally standard play loop that fits just fine within the structure of the adventuring rules.

Good for you, pray tell how you arrive at this conclusion. Please let me know how you deduce that the characters don't have a passive perception when the sentence actually tells you that they have one, just that it does not contribute to the group's success.

I deduce it with the sentence that says they don't get their passive perception when engaged in other activities.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

First, notice that the wording is quite clear: "Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger." They are not focussed on watching for danger does not mean that they are completely oblivious to their surroundings. It's not specifically their task, but they are seasonned adventurers, and survivors.

Now, the only thing that the rule says is that the passive perception does not contribute to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats. Since it's about the group, switch to the group activities, what does it say ?

• "To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails." That what it means "contributing to success, having a roll that matters in counting the result.
• Then, there's the example: "Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards."

Now, translate this into detecting an ambush by orcs. It's exactly the same thing, if enough people of the group succeed, they will know about the ambush as a group, and therefore no-one risks being surprised, since everyone is aware that there is a group of orcs ahead. But if they fail, either because their scores are too low, or because some people are not focussing enough on the threats (and their passive score is simply not counted as per the rule), then the group is not aware that there is an orc ambush ahead.

So when combat starts, everyone will check for surprise, using their passive perception, which has not been magically turned off, simply not counted in the group result.

It's mostly about timing and determination for the group, since it's travelling and it's focussed on the group, not on single characters.

So, in the orc ambush example, you give characters two potential chances to avoid the danger of surprise? Once (as a group) while travelling and, failing that, then once again (as individuals) when combat starts?

 

[iserith]

No, it does not. Once more, just read the sentence for me, from beginning to end: "These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats."

Case closed, you are not reading the sentence, just interpreting it according to your wishes.

Case reopened! (I have as much power to reopen cases as you do to close them.)

Narrowly applying this rule to whatever you think "travel" means and also apparently only to group checks (so far as I can tell?) looks to be your way of dismissing the rule, thereby making Perception stronger in your games than may be intended. It also doesn't appear to really fit what I understand the level of realism you desire in your games to be, so it's quite baffling why you've staked out this position. It looks to me like you just don't like travel and have traditionally ignored this part of the rules which, in the doing, has a ripple effect on the rest of the game where Perception is concerned. You then patch that with a social agreement that nobody at the table should maximize Perception without some kind of in-character reason (which is trivial to contrive).

I guess that's a way to deal with the situation you've caused. I, along with others it seems, just integrate all the rules and it works fine without any additional need of a social agreement to sidestep the huge incentive to invest in Perception you have created by your exclusion of this rule. In case it's not clear, I doubt anyone here is judging you for how you choose to play - empower Perception all you want. But the rules are right there for all to see, if you choose to use them.

 

[Iry]

I guess that's a way to deal with the situation you've caused. I, along with others it seems, just integrate all the rules and it works fine without any additional need of a social agreement to sidestep the huge incentive to invest in Perception you have created by your exclusion of this rule. In case it's not clear, I doubt anyone here is judging you for how you choose to play - empower Perception all you want. But the rules are right there for all to see, if you choose to use them.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty lenient about when Passive Perception applies. I'm happy when my players succeed at things, and don't mind letting it shine because I tend to run smaller tables (5 tops) and there's less overlap. But the rules are definitely there, and they give pretty good guidelines about when it should and shouldn't apply. An abstraction I keep running in the back of my mind.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't deny that there is a rule about travelling, what I'm saying is that it does not apply to exploration in general. What I'm saying is that (and it's always been that way, whatever the edition), it goes along the lines of:

• DM: "You enter the tomb, what do you do ?"
• P1: "I go to the door at the end of the room and listen."
• P2: "I stay by the exit and draw a quick map."
• P3: "I go to the sarcophagus and inspect it"
• DM: "There is some noise down the passage at the other end of the room"
• P1: "I whisper to the others that I'm going to scout, and I stealthily go down the passage."

No marching order, no group movement, no use of travel speed, no assignment of role, NOTHING in there resembles in any way the travelling rule, and it's the absolutely standard playing loop including movement.

There doesn't have to be a marching order or group movement. Unless you're arguing that one person can't travel. Since 1 person can travel, and movement by 5e RAW is traveling, when P1 goes to scout stealthily down the passage the travel rules involving stealth and slower movement kick in. The normal travel pace rules kick in when he walks to the door. When P3 walks(travels) to the sarcophagus and inspects it, he is distracted by his actions and gets no passive perception to notice stealthy threats/traps(other than on the sarcophagus). P2 doesn't move, but is distracted and doesn't get his passive perception if anything happens while he is doing that.

Are your games different from the above ?

They aren't different in declaration, but are different in results. Someone focused on listening at the door isn't going to be able to use passive perception to notice the threat sneaking down the stairs to the tomb behind the party. Someone drawing a map is going to be focused on map stuff and is not going to get passive perception for that group, either. I would give P2 a perception roll with disadvantage, though, since he's explicitly near the exit and might get lucky.

 

[Maxperson]

First, notice that the wording is quite clear: "Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger." They are not focussed on watching for danger does not mean that they are completely oblivious to their surroundings. It's not specifically their task, but they are seasonned adventurers, and survivors.

Now, the only thing that the rule says is that the passive perception does not contribute to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats. Since it's about the group, switch to the group activities, what does it say ?

• "To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails." That what it means "contributing to success, having a roll that matters in counting the result.
• Then, there's the example: "Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards."

Perception is not a group roll. That's why some people in the party can be surprised while others are not.

Now, translate this into detecting an ambush by orcs. It's exactly the same thing, if enough people of the group succeed, they will know about the ambush as a group, and therefore no-one risks being surprised, since everyone is aware that there is a group of orcs ahead. But if they fail, either because their scores are too low, or because some people are not focussing enough on the threats (and their passive score is simply not counted as per the rule), then the group is not aware that there is an orc ambush ahead.

No.

"Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side." - Compared to each creature, singular, on the opposing side. This further backed up by...

"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." - Any character or monster, singular, that doesn't notice is surprised. And...

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends." - If you, singular, are surprised... Lastly...

"A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't." - This is definitively saying that passive perception to notice threats is NOT a group check.

 

[Maxperson]

The marching order is P1 at the door at the end of the room, P2 at the exit, and P3 at the sarcophagus. The assignment of roles are P1 watching for hidden dangers, P2 drawing a map, and P3 investigating the sarcophagus. P1 gets their passive, while P2 and P3 are doing other activities.

The adventuring chapter is pretty much always present, unless you're in the thick of combat or something.

That's not a marching order. A marching order is...

P1: "Okay DM. The fighter is up front, followed by the cleric, then the wizard and last will be the rogue. We're putting our most observant guy in the back, because we like walking into traps."

When in a room like that and everyone is declaring actions, each PC is essentially moving(or not moving) as an independent group.

 

[Maxperson]

Hear hear.

Sorry bud, my passive perception isn't high enough.

 

[FrogReaver]

Personally, I wouldn't even let a PC help another PC with passive perception or any passive check. So I'm sure as heck not going to let their pets do it.