D&D General BECMI - okay how do you Immortal?


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overgeeked

B/X Known World
Been watching Mr. Welch so I want to ask this.

How do you immortal?

BEC seems solid as stone, but M seems to stumble and I feels unfocused as heck.

So you are given a party of immortals and how do you run a game.
The I set was not great. The immortal rules from Wrath of the Immortals and the Rules Cyclopedia were much better.

Another option would be to ignore the immortal rules from BECMI and go with Lords of Creation.
 

The Glen

Hero
Master should have been extra planar adventures. You are chasing Immortality, jumping through time and becoming the chosen of divine creatures.

Immortals are way beyond even the highest level mortal. Even the weakest immortal can snap a planet into existence, something gods can't do except for the most powerful. Immortal adventures are about maintaining the multiverse and protecting the world from those that would conquer it for their own reasons like the worship addicted gods.
 

dave2008

Legend
Master should have been extra planar adventures. You are chasing Immortality, jumping through time and becoming the chosen of divine creatures.

Immortals are way beyond even the highest level mortal. Even the weakest immortal can snap a planet into existence, something gods can't do except for the most powerful. Immortal adventures are about maintaining the multiverse and protecting the world from those that would conquer it for their own reasons like the worship addicted gods.
Yep, even the lowest level of Immortal could create several Large Planets without to much effort:
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It is funny how relatively little damage they could do! I always thought it was easier to destroy than create - I guess I was wrong!
 

The Glen

Hero
They could wipe out entire planets pretty easy. Just blink a small sun into existence a few feet away from a planet. But that's why Immortal powers have the restriction against killing mortals directly with their powers. I believe the example given in one of the books was teleporting Earth inside the orbit of Mercury only costs 9pp. So the other Immortals invoked the ban.
 

The I set was not great. The immortal rules from Wrath of the Immortals and the Rules Cyclopedia were much better.

Another option would be to ignore the immortal rules from BECMI and go with Lords of Creation.
I'm honestly not that pleased with the WotI or RC versions either.

I like the Master and Immortal sets for the bizarre concepts they explored and the game multiverse it created (which I found much more interesting than AD&D's great wheel whatsit that tried to fit the square peg of the outer planes into the round whole of the 3x3 alignment system). However the whole thing was unnecessarily married to a D&D which worked best at levels 1-~12 and didn't really know what or why it was still there at levels post-36.

All in all, I agree with skipping and going with LoC (or Noblis, Godbound, etc., or heck Fate or one of Jenna Moran's games or something).
 


Lyxen

Great Old One
I recommend reading the Malazan Book of the Fallen, as it deals with assencion a lot

While I also heartily recommend the Malazan Book of the Fallen, the ascension there is fairly specialised. In a sense, it's probably more closer to what can be expected to happen to a D&D character, on the other hand, it's for me not a real ascension in the sense of getting a divine spark, worshippers and a domain. For those, I would recommend Sanderson books and in particular Mistborn as well as the Stormlight Archives.
 

cbwjm

Legend
Master should have been extra planar adventures. You are chasing Immortality, jumping through time and becoming the chosen of divine creatures.

Immortals are way beyond even the highest level mortal. Even the weakest immortal can snap a planet into existence, something gods can't do except for the most powerful. Immortal adventures are about maintaining the multiverse and protecting the world from those that would conquer it for their own reasons like the worship addicted gods.
Isn't one of the first things a new immortal does is create a home plane with a planet and some worshipers? I seem to recall something about that.
 

The Glen

Hero
Isn't one of the first things a new immortal does is create a home plane with a planet and some worshipers? I seem to recall something about that.
Not as a starting level immortal. The cost to create new creatures is rather prohibitive. Plus when you ascend you're already Super Famous among your own people and those will be your first followers. You typically have to get to mid-tier to have enough power to create new followers in any sufficient number
 

dave2008

Legend
They could wipe out entire planets pretty easy. Just blink a small sun into existence a few feet away from a planet. But that's why Immortal powers have the restriction against killing mortals directly with their powers. I believe the example given in one of the books was teleporting Earth inside the orbit of Mercury only costs 9pp. So the other Immortals invoked the ban.
Yes, but that was not what I was talking about when I said "damage." I was talking about the disconnect between their amazing powers and the relative mundane abilities of their manifest forms. In my conversion I am trying to smooth out that difference a bit, but that means an Initiate can simple "pop" a planet or sun into creation. Conversely the can do about 100hp of damage on average with a simple attack (not even using a power).
 

The Glen

Hero
Yes, but that was not what I was talking about when I said "damage." I was talking about the disconnect between their amazing powers and the relative mundane abilities of their manifest forms. In my conversion I am trying to smooth out that difference a bit, but that means an Initiate can simple "pop" a planet or sun into creation. Conversely the can do about 100hp of damage on average with a simple attack (not even using a power).
They do try to explain it with that's the most powerful form they can manifest without getting into trouble. You can manifest as your full divine person and throw mountain ranges at people but the other Immortals are going to want to have a word with you afterwards. So you have to keep a low profile so to speak
 

dave2008

Legend
They do try to explain it with that's the most powerful form they can manifest without getting into trouble. You can manifest as your full divine person and throw mountain ranges at people but the other Immortals are going to want to have a word with you afterwards. So you have to keep a low profile so to speak
Ya, not a situation (having to explain why you can't use your full powers) I am interested in recreating!

I mean there has to be a lot of gray area between throwing a mountain at someone and doing 4 punches for 4d6 damage! And that is the most powerful immortal!

So maybe that is 34 (4d6 + 20) damage x4 for a DPR of 136? Is that right? Or you know throw a mountain on someone.

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Yaarel

Mind Mage
Ya, not a situation (having to explain why you can't use your full powers) I am interested in recreating!

I mean there has to be a lot of gray area between throwing a mountain at someone and doing 4 punches for 4d6 damage! And that is the most powerful immortal!

So maybe that is 34 (4d6 + 20) damage x4 for a DPR of 136? Is that right? Or you know throw a mountain on someone.

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If damage dealing is an epic boon or even a boon chain each with improved damage, the gradations in between become manageable.

It would change the nature of the game, but it might make sense to improve by orders of magnitude:

1, 3, 10, 30, 100, 300, 1000, etcetera.

Thus the scale accelerates from punch, to boulder, to mountain, eventually planet, and beyond.
 

dave2008

Legend
If damage dealing is an epic boon or even a boon chain each with improved damage, the gradations in between become manageable.

It would change the nature of the game, but it might make sense to improve by orders of magnitude:

1, 3, 10, 30, 100, 300, 1000, etcetera.

Thus the scale accelerates from punch, to boulder, to mountain, eventually planet, and beyond.
Any reason you wouldn't just go 1,10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc.?
 


le Redoutable

I mean you no harm
One can roughly correlate 5e.

Levels 1-4: Basic
Levels 5-8: Expert
Levels 9-12: Champion
Levels 13-16: Master
Levels 17-20: Immortal (Lower Rank)

Levels 21-24: Immortal (Upper Rank)
tiens! looks like BASE 6 to BASE 10

BASE ==> max stat
10 100 ===> 42 => I

9 81 ===> 36 ==> M
8 64 ===> 30 ==> C
7 49 ===> 25 ==> E
6 36 ===> 18 ==> B
5 25 ===> 14 ==> 0-level
 
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Orius

Hero
I don't really agree there, 5e has a more compact range than BECMI, and you really can't play Immortal with the 5e rules anyway.

For me it would rather be:
  • Basic: Levels 1-4: Local Heroes
  • Expert: Levels 5-10: Heroes of the Realm
  • Champion: Levels 11-16: Masters of the Realm
  • Master: Levels 17-20: Masters of the World + Epic, at least a few levels
  • Immortal: I have yet to found epic rules for 5e that give you something even approaching what an Immortal game feels like, actually.

Yeah, the four Tiers of 5E seem to track to BECM pretty well.

Interesting you guys should mention that....

Classic D&D had a 36 level spread, primarily in Mentzer and also RC, but the Cook/Marsh Expert set originally promised the Companion set to take things to level 36. The Mentzer sets broke things down by these level ranges:

Basic 1-3
Expert 4-14
Companion 15-25
Master 26-36

Now, one could just try porting those levels straight over to AD&D, and maybe later editions too, but by early 2e, it seems like the guys writing the D&D stuff realized that straight D&D to AD&D conversions weren't quite right. There were some conversion to 2e guidelines in the later Gazetteers I think starting with Ethengar as well as at least one of the Creature Crucibles, but the most comprehensive was probably in the RC. The RC suggests treating levels 1-12 on a 1:1 basis and then 1 AD&D level for every three D&D level afterwards. When you run the levels for the Mentzer sets through that you get these level ranges:

Basic 1-3
Expert 4-13
Companion 13-17
Master 17-20

Isn't that interesting?

Now I'd bump Companion down to about 10 -- I feel that the domain game should have started around name level all along and that the levels are an artifact of the B/X Expert going up to 14 -- and you'll note the levels for the Mentzer sets match 5e's tiers pretty closely.

The main problem is that Master's isn't really a great set IMO. It mostly locks the PCs into seeking godhood and I feel that there should be more varied goals at this stage. Companion did touch on PCs becoming wandering heroes instead of ruling a dominion after all. Plus the Paths of Immortality were all locked into specific classes. Maybe the Masters modules gave a good example of showcasing typical play like CM1 does but I've never bothered to look at them.

Immortals as I understand was mostly Frank just finishing up the BECMI stuff before leaving TSR to work with Gary, and there's a lot of weird esoteric material in there that just does its own thing. WotI might have cleaned some of that up, but unfortunately its adventures suck as they have nothing to do with the PCs becoming Immortals and focus on blowing up parts of Mystara instead.
 

jgsugden

Legend
....I understand (and agree) that Champion would have probably made more sense...but that isn't what it is called.
Companion makes sense when you look at the contents of the ruleset - at least to me. A lot of it was about Strongholds, Rulership and Dominions of the PCs. I saw the Companion name as a reference to the followers of the heroes under these rules.
 

Rogerd1

Explorer
I have mentioned this before, but Primal Order would be a better fit to be honest in terms of powerset.

That said, Immortals is totally the wrong terminology. Immortals are unaging individuals - Eternals would be more apt, or Ascended.

Whereas deities are have found a way to use the psychic energy generated through worship, eternals do not require worship.

Thing is, and DnD writers have not understood the consequences of worship in their cosmology. In a multiverse with infinite worlds, it also means infinite worshippers, therefore each deity has infinite power.
 

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