Been away for a while - back with a question.

[Staffan]

Well, the Sleep example would work rather poorly in 4e.

First, you have to hit the barkeep's Will defense. This will only Slow him for the first six seconds (IIRC). Next round, he gets a save. If he succeeds, he's all clear, and only if he fails (45% chance) will he actually fall asleep. And even if he does fall asleep, he gets another save every round, so it's not like the party will have a long time in which to do their snooping.

 

[Buttercup]

Melkor! My goodness, I haven't seen you around in...years, has it been? Please come over to Circvs Maximvs - Powered by vBulletin where everyone will be really excited to see you again after so long.

Sorry to hijack your thread. Carry on.

 

[MerricB]

You can certainly cast sleep on a barkeep. He's got a 55% chance of waking up each round due to the "Save Ends" part of Sleep. (Also some implement or abilities will reduce his chances of waking.).

For powers that don't have "Save Ends", they last five minutes at most - see PHB page 58, top of second column.

Cheers!

 

[Shroomy]

Another thing to consider is that in the above scenario the barkeep would be immediately aware that the wizard was casting sleep on him. Not only would the wizard need LoS and LoE to the barkeep (making him at least somewhat noticeable), but then the target would be immediately aware that someone was using that particular power against him and what effects it would have.

 

[jbear]

maybe so, but I'd probably give the caster a chance to bluff him, and so avoid him realising exactly where the magic is coming from.

Really though, there are no spells that take anyone out instantly and for large determined amounts of time. The PC's are going to have to get more creative if they want to buy some time to snoop around undisturbed.

 

[Melkor]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Keep in mind that the sleep spell on the barkeep was just an example off the top of my head. I haven't had to chance to thoroughly read through every power in the books I have.....I just seem to recall when 4E came out that there was some talk of most (if not all) of the powers being tailored to combat encounters without much mention of what they do, or could do, in a non-encounter situation.

 

[Melkor]

For powers that don't have "Save Ends", they last five minutes at most - see PHB page 58, top of second column.

Cheers!

Thanks for the reference MerricB!

 

[roguerouge]

I'll give a Dragonlance example: Raistlin learns to use sleep when he casts it on his feverish brother to get Caramon some needed rest.

 

[Morrus]

I'll give a Dragonlance example: Raistlin learns to use sleep when he casts it on his feverish brother to get Caramon some needed rest.

Yes, he attacked Caramon. Probably with a surprise round achieved via Stealth or Bluff.

Don't confuse the game terms "attack" and "combat" with any emotive intent. They're simply game terms, not motive judgements or personality asssessments. Casting sleep on someone else is an attack.

The fact that it's an incredibly short, one-sided, and easy combat does not make it "not a combat" in game terms. In 4E terms here's what happened:

Raistlin: Bluff of Stealth check to gain surprise round. Success.
Raistlin: Surprise round casts sleep on Caramon. Success.
Combat over.

It's still a combat, and it's still an attack. And it works perfectly in 4E (other than the fact that the sleep spell has changed a little to slow then sleep instead of immediate sleep - so Caramon yawns, gets drowsy, then falls asleep 6 seconds later). In the meantime Raistlin is acting like nothing's happened.

 

[the Jester]

Did Raistlin get xp for defeating Caramon, then?