Beginning the game with +1 HD of Expert

[Felix]

I like the idea that before the PCs became classed they actually did something. The fighter was a bartender; the rogue was a merchant vessel rigging rat; the wizard was a librarian's aide, et cetera.

So the idea is to give everyone 1 HD of Expert.

Their skill points at "first" level would increase by 4, and they would have the Expert's class skills as class skills for that first level; those skill points would have to be spent towards Craft or Profession, or similarly real-world applicable skills. Their HP would increase by 1d6 (with their base PC class being the full HD). Their Will save would be +2.

This HD would not count towards the party ECL or CR. It would not count towards feat aquisition. It would not count towards max-ranks in skills. It would not count towards XP.

How would this affect the game? In both good ways and bad?

 

[Spatzimaus]

I've done something similar, in a few different ways. Personally, it gives results I like: the characters have a bit more diverse skill list, and that pays off in adventures that aren't just hack-'n-slash. The original method we used was to have the characters take NPC levels, and then "promote" those levels to full PC class levels along the way. But, this didn't work as well as we liked, mechanically, and so the method we ended up using in our homebrew was to give every race "Racial Levels" to take. Since the class skills you'd get during those levels were different than the ones for your later classes, it gave a bit of diversity.

The big headache is magic. If you're not counting that first level towards EL/CR, then part of that goes away, but the end result will still be that everyone will have higher Will saves and HP than normal. Giving everyone +2 to Will, across the board, really hurts anyone trying to use enchantments on the party. And those extra 1d6 HP might not sound like a big deal, but it's the difference between magic missile killing a mook or not (and wouldn't you get your CON bonus to that 1d6?).

 

[Felix]

And those extra 1d6 HP might not sound like a big deal, but it's the difference between magic missile killing a mook or not (and wouldn't you get your CON bonus to that 1d6?).

This change would be for PCs only, and you would get the CON bonus.

Does that change the analysis?

As far as enemies using Will-save effects vs the party, at later levels it's Fort-or-die or Will-or-turn-against-party; I think the second is the more threatening and this may go a little way to protecting them.

 

[Crothian]

I did something like this but based it on race and where the character was from. I ran one small adventure with the characters just like this with no class levels. It helps keep them alive without doing a lot else. The extra skill points the players all enjoy though.

 

[NilesB]

those skill points would have to be spent towards Craft or Profession, or similarly real-world applicable skills.

You have just killed all rogues.

 

[Felix]

You have just killed all rogues.

By giving every character 4 skill points that must be spent on profession/craft or similar?

How in the name of hyperbole did I kill all rogues?

 

[Spatzimaus]

This change would be for PCs only, and you would get the CON bonus.

Does that change the analysis?

A bit. First, because you're adding a boost solely to the players, and that'll make things easier for them (especially at level 1). I've never been a fan of the rules that make PCs mechanically superior to NPCs. Higher stats, sure, they're the "above average" people, but giving them things no one else has (like Action Points in some systems) just annoys me a bit.

Second, by letting them get the CON bonus (and INT bonus for skills, presumably) you could make a BIG difference in number of hit points. On the other hand, if you don't let them have the CON and force them to roll the 1d6, you could have a level 1 expert with 20 CON and only one hit point.

Personally, I'd say it'd be better to just give them a flat 6 HP with no CON boost, but that's even more of a deviation from the standard mechanics.

As far as enemies using Will-save effects vs the party, at later levels it's Fort-or-die or Will-or-turn-against-party; I think the second is the more threatening and this may go a little way to protecting them.

Possibly, but my point is that you're throwing off balance quite a bit. Effectively, it's like giving every character Iron Will (+2 vs Will) for free. Any spells that allow Will saves just got noticeably weaker. In my experience, the will saves aren't really the biggest problem, as there are plenty of ways to protect from them (protection from evil, mind blank, etc.; it's the no-save stuff (harm) that's the bigger problem. It's not like giving every character a few extra HP; +2 vs Will stays just as useful at high levels.

Also, realize that those high-level Will saves are very all-or-nothing, there's no "save for half damage" like Reflex saves have. This isn't so noticeable when you're using solely core D&D, as there aren't many high-level fireball variants, but once you start adding splatbooks in (or use Psionics!), it's really apparent.

And NilesB:

You have just killed all rogues.

I don't see how. For that ONE level, a level that doesn't even exist for purposes of CR/EL/etc., you get skill points that can only be spent on Craft/Profession. That's pretty much how the racial HD work in my system, and how the "Background" systems some people add work. Some people like the "gain 2 extra skill points every level, but they can only be spent on craft/profession/knowledge" variant.

If anything, you've got it backwards; if you COULD pick the more "rogueish" skills, there'd be little reason to take Rogue levels. This way, they're still on the playing field before; someone with 10 levels of Rogue will still have the same modifier to his rogue skills he did before, and will still be facing the same sorts of enemies; he'll just have a few ranks of other stuff, as well.

 

[NilesB]

By giving every character 4 skill points that must be spent on profession/craft or similar?

How in the name of hyperbole did I kill all rogues?

By requiring all characters to take their level that gets 4 times skill points as a class with fewer skill points and a shorter skill list and requiring them to waste those skills on things that don't give them the ability to fulfill their role in the party.

 

[Spatzimaus]

By requiring all characters to take their level that gets 4 times skill points

He never said that the x4 applied to the Expert level. In fact, he implicitly said that it WASN'T treated as the first level for the characters; the 1d6 isn't maximized, the max skill ranks aren't increased, there's no free level 1 Feat, etc.

So you're reading something into his idea that wasn't there.

 

[Wolf72]

sooo ... all characters, at 1st lvl, get:

+2 will saves

6 skill points (expert is 6/lvl?)

6 hit points

and this represents their youth and training?