Yeah, I'm not sure they quite reach the idea of Force as it had been presented, I was just trying to throw out a couple of examples that occurred to me.Both these cases are strong assertions of GM authority over scene-framing. I don't necessarily see that they're force because in neither case does there seem to be any action resolution going on.
Yes, you got it. I am uninterested in banter between a shopkeeper and a PC, unless there's something potentially meaningful involved. Same with haggling about prices and so on....we don't need to act that all out. You want to talk the guy down in price a bit? Okay, make a check to see how successful that is. Luckily, our games have kind of moved past that resource management aspect to the point this rarely comes up anymore. But I used to have one or two players who would use every single NPC they met as a chance to act out an interaction of some sort. A little of that is fine to help establish a person's character.....but for me it quickly becomes self indulgence, and I move on.That second claim might be contentious - but if we say that action resolution means some meaningful change in either the mechanical situation, or the fictional situation, or both, then I think it's plausible. Your mundane encounters (I'm assuming this is talking-to-shopkeepers stuff) seem (if I may be so bold) mere time-wasting colour.
Right, I just reframed it. Which is what I would have done had I realized all the implications in actual play of what I thought was a kind of interesting idea when reading through the book. Then we got to that point of actual play, and I realized we were going to spend potentially hours of the game on this, and I just didn't want to do that. Nor would I have expected my players to want to do that (which they later confirmed when I explained), so I simply narrated it, said that they spent a couple of hours on it, and that yes, they could use it as a potentially safe hiding space to rest and recover if needed.The second one maybe is meant to involve resource consumption? But it's also a safe place where they can rest and get back their spells and hp? And at least as you present it no actions had really been declared. (In my Illusionism thread I mentioned Roger Musson's union meeting of ogres, to stop the players going down a corridor that the GM hasn't written up yet. The line between that, and what you did, might be fine but I think it's worth noting. You didn't leave the players' action declarations on foot and narrate further content and consequences. You just reframed the whole situation.)
Yeah. I know you and I have in the past had some discussions on this where we disagreed a bit, but I really don't think that we do. A GM will always have influence on the game via setting and scene framing and the like. As we've discussed further, I think we're very much of similar mind on this.This goes back to something I think I posted upthread (again, I've got thread-merging-confusion) - if all GM decisions about the fiction are equated with force than the latter concept becomes analytically unhelpful.
There is a widespread view that the GM framing scenes is railroading unless they're scenes with a "quest-giver" in a tavern so that the players have the (at least notional choice) of taking the quest or keeping on chatting with the barmaid. But I think you only have to state the view plainly to see it's pretty implausible. Of course strong scene-framing might be contrary to some agreed point of a game - say dungeon-crawling or hex-crawling - but that doesn't make it force. Not all bad GMing, or poorly-judged narration, is force.