Beguiler and High Level Play

[shilsen]

Is greater dispel magic on the beguiler's spell list? If so, I have a fewer worries.

Yes, it is.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Even more a Rogue with a Wand of Gravestrike can still get in some sneak attack.

Keep in mind that command word activated items always take a standard action to activate, even if they are of a swift spell. So, the Wand of Gravestrike is useless.

 

[Mistwell]

What has the lich been doing for the past 10+ rounds it takes the beguiler to cast those?

My point is that there are plenty of spells the Beguiler can cast that Mind Blank does not block. A hasty generalization was made about the Beguiler spells all being blocked by Mind Blank, and I addressed that concern. And, as stated, pointed out that Mind Blank can be dispelled by the Beguiler anyway (which at high levels will be a farily common spell for the Beguiler and other casters anyway).

I really don't think high level Beguilers will have the troubles some folks are predicting.

 

[Sejs]

Is greater dispel magic on the beguiler's spell list? If so, I have a fewer worries.

*nod* What PC said. Having a defensive spell isn't a be-all, end-all full stop. It just needs to be removed first, that's all.

Besides, just because those spells exist doesn't mean every enemy has them. If for some reason they do, then the problem doesn't lie with the class or the spells, if'n ya catch my drift.

 

[Henry]

Also keep in mind that Beguilers have a number of other tactics at their disposal; Diplomacy is one, and personal illusory effects are another. As mentioned above, attacking the minions of said lich should be the first priority.

Even if the beguiler is put into a situation where all opponents are resistant to him, it just goes into the same category as other situations where one class takes a back seat to another (same as "Fighters can't heal, and bard's don't tank well.")

 

[IanB]

They get Use Magic Device as well, I think - they should have plenty of options by the time they get to high level play.

 

[satori01]

Against undead Beguiler's spell list is reduced to Figments, Glammers, and Shadow as illusion subschools.
The entire Enchantment school is just out against undead.

Looking at the Beguiler's spell list there just is not that many High Level Figments, Glammers, or Shadow sub school spells on their spell list. Shadow is the key subschool here, with spells like Shadow Conjuration, Shades, and Shadow Evocation being chosen as the advanced learning options.

I guess a Beguiler could get by like that, playing like a Wizard with a LA penalty, but with no benefit. Just seems a shame to be reduced to being a mere conjurer of near real things when against living oponents a Beguiler can act like Obi -Wan Kenobi, on the good side, telling people to "go home and rethink their lives",
or "Where not worth you trouble" to , representing the dark side " kneel before Zod" moments.

The problem is what campaign is not going to feature Undead, or other Immune to Mind Affecting things creatures (eg god)are you going to find. Pray for the campaign against Demon Lords I guess.

 

[satori01]

They get Use Magic Device as well, I think - they should have plenty of options by the time they get to high level play.

Which is useful up to a point, but still generally means casting like a caster bellow your top spell level.

Use Magic Device is also a lot more effective a strategy in a High Magic, High Economic Development game, where you can assert some control over what you will be casting via Use Magic Device.
A Warlock is probably better at this than a Beguiler, and would probably be the better choice for High level play against undead.

 

[Sejs]

The problem is what campaign is not going to feature Undead, or other Immune to Mind Affecting things creatures (eg god)are you going to find. Pray for the campaign against Demon Lords I guess.

Many of which have innate True Seeing.

Damned if you do...




Mind you, not every single campaign is built on some sort of tier system where after some point you graduate to things that're all immune to your beguilery. You may end up fighting undead in large numbers, or plants, or constructs, or uh.. vermin? Oozes? But it's far from a certainty. After a certain level you don't necessarily move to the 'D' section in the Monster Manual and set up shop. Hell, I distinctly recall one campaign where at the higher levels we were still primarily fighting goblinoids. Well-organized goblinoids with class levels, but goblinoids none the less.

 

[Mistwell]

Against undead Beguiler's spell list is reduced to Figments, Glammers, and Shadow as illusion subschools.
The entire Enchantment school is just out against undead.

Undead have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

We've already listed plenty of spells that they are not immune to. I gave a handfull of examples just from glancing at their spell list (there are many more) such as solid fog, phantom battle, legion of sentinels, vertigo field and zone of silence. Not to mention all the defensive spells the Beguiler gets.

Beguilers have spells that are not just mind-affecting illusions and enchantments. Just because that is the focus of this class doesn't mean that's ALL they have.