Beguiler in core books game

[stonegod]

If I were another caster, I would be kinda pissed if another player got to bring in non-core spells and I didn't.

Beguiliers have some PHBII only spells, but no others extra-source ones. THey are not the majority and can be excised quickly enough.

 

[Particle_Man]

I gotta point out that this is very much incorrect, enough so to make me wonder if you guys are all that familiar with'em. The beguiler gets a nice helping of spells that aren't enchantment or illusion. The beguiler in my campaign makes extensive use of haste, slow, expeditious retreat, dispel magic, glitterdust, knock, halt, obscuring mist, spider climb, locate creature, freedom of movement, and many other spells from the divination, abjuration, conjuration, and transmutation schools.

Fine. You don't get fireball, lightning bolt, evard's black tenticles, acid orb, sonic orb, or fly. You are not the blaster mage. You also don't get polymorph, Tenser's Transformation, etc., so you can't turn into God-monster. You also don't get Summon Monster X, so you don't get that option. YOu don't get to make +5 weapons as buff spells.

You have limitations that the sorcerer doesn't have, in other words.

 

[Particle_Man]

What is the source of Fey heritage feats, and why are they a possible problem in combination with Beguilers?

Fey heritage feats are in Complete Mage, as are Fiendish Heritage feats.

 

[AllisterH]

Fine. You don't get fireball, lightning bolt, evard's black tenticles, acid orb, sonic orb, or fly. You are not the blaster mage. You also don't get polymorph, Tenser's Transformation, etc., so you can't turn into God-monster. You also don't get Summon Monster X, so you don't get that option. YOu don't get to make +5 weapons as buff spells.

You have limitations that the sorcerer doesn't have, in other words.

Basically, a sorceror can replace a beguiler in a party however, the beguiler can't replace the sorceror.

 

[lukelightning]

There are two concerns that I would have with integrating a Beguiler into a core game. First, I would worry about stepping on other player's toes.

That goes for any class; nothing specific to the beguiler.

 

[Felon]

Fine. You don't get fireball, lightning bolt, evard's black tenticles, acid orb, sonic orb, or fly. You are not the blaster mage. You also don't get polymorph, Tenser's Transformation, etc., so you can't turn into God-monster. You also don't get Summon Monster X, so you don't get that option. YOu don't get to make +5 weapons as buff spells.

You have limitations that the sorcerer doesn't have, in other words.

Sure, and vice versa.

But why focus on fireballs and polymorphs? Iit sounds like you're focusing entirely on damage output as a benchmark of effectiveness, which with arcane casters is a mistake. A beguiler can buff and debuff like mad, and that's a pretty effective party role as well.

 

[Felon]

Basically, a sorceror can replace a beguiler in a party however, the beguiler can't replace the sorceror.

Well, that's basic, I'll give you that.

A beguiler could replace a certain type of sorcerer. Just not a nuker (which, I understand, is synonymous with sorcerer to some folks).

A beguiler is far better in the areana of casting enchantment and illusion spells. The sorcerer can't replace him there. If a sorcerer tried, he'd come up short on slots and certainly wouldn't have all the groovy buffs and utility spells that the beguiler has that aren't enchantments or illusions.

A sorcerer wouldn't have six skill points a level, or a beguiler's obscene skill list, or the ability to cast spells in light armor, or the ability to find traps, or the saving throw and spell penetration bonuses that surprise casting provides.

Beguilers are amanzingly effective, without ever having to chuck a lightning bolt--although thanks to having Use Magic Device on their skill list, that's hardly out of the realm of possibility. Nor is Cure Moderate Wounds for that matter. I know, I see it happen every game session.

 

[Felon]

There are two concerns that I would have with integrating a Beguiler into a core game. First, I would worry about stepping on other player's toes. In a core game, a Cha-based rogue, sorcerer with enchantment spells, or bard are going to be the classes that focus on social abilities and subterfuge. If you already have these PCs in the party, they might be dissapointed to learn that another character is going to take part of their spotlight. Second, IDHTBRIFOM, but I thought a number of the Beguiler's spells were spells that came from non-core books. If I were another caster, I would be kinda pissed if another player got to bring in non-core spells and I didn't.

Well, the beguiler has spells from the PHB and PHBII (which is the book he happens to appear in). There are spells for the bard and what-not too, so all's fair.

The beguiler not only can, but almost certainly will outperform the rogue at just about everything except direct damage (via sneak attack). He's got a couple less skill points, but the spell list he has more than makes up for it (due in large part to not being restricted to merely enchantment and illusions spells). He's loaded with skill-trumping spells that let him outsneak and outscout.

 

[Thurbane]

Basically, a sorceror can replace a beguiler in a party however, the beguiler can't replace the sorceror.

The Beguiler can do a fair job of replacing the Rogue, however...

 

[lukelightning]

The Beguiler can do a fair job of replacing the Rogue, however...

So can a wand of detect traps along with a wand of knock.