Beguiler in core books game

[Felon]

So can a wand of detect traps along with a wand of knock.

While I love a glib one-line rejoinder as much as the next guy, I do feel compelled to point out that the spell is called find traps, that it's actually fairly lousy at actually finding traps, and that a rogue's usefulness extends far beyond finding traps and opening locks.

And it had better, because finding traps and opening are part of a style of playing D&D that the designers are avidly trying to flush down the crapper.

 

[Nail]

...because finding traps and opening are part of a style of playing D&D that the designers are avidly trying to flush down the crapper.

(Nice quotable!)
What evidence do you have to support this?

 

[kigmatzomat]

I for one, cannot stand Dragon Class Anything, and although I like Knights, Beguilers, and Duskblads to different extents, I won't allow the Dragon class in my game, even if PHB2 has otherwise become cannon for me.

Call it "Geomancer," give the air/electricity types the wings at 19th level, +20' bonus move for earth/acid, swim for water/cold and spider climb to fire (yeah, I was reaching, but fire sticks to everything). Treat all the stat boosts & armor as an elemental nature and it works out fine.

 

[Thurbane]

So can a wand of detect traps along with a wand of knock.

I don't think that stacks up against having Detect Secret Doors, Invisibility, Knock and Silence as automatically known spells, having Disable Device, Open Locks and Search as class skills, and having Trapfinding as a class ability, though...

 

[Arkhandus]

I for one, cannot stand Dragon Class Anything, and although I like Knights, Beguilers, and Duskblads to different extents, I won't allow the Dragon class in my game, even if PHB2 has otherwise become cannon for me.

Yes, heaven forbid that Dungeons & Dragons should have anything dragon-themed in it. :\

/sarcasm

Dragon Shamans are cool and not at all inappropriate for D&D. They might get a little overpowered if you throw in Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon, maybe, but otherwise they are fine.

 

[Felon]

(Nice quotable!)
What evidence do you have to support this?

Well, they've advised DM's in a number of book to avoid placing hidden traps that make the PC's move around cautiously. Dungeonscape is probably the most recent source. Also, it's pretty manifest in their recently-published adventures. I played a rogue/scout to 8th level in RHoD without running into a single trap before rolling out my evoker. I'm running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, and it's a trapless affair. Generally when adventures do have traps, it's some glyph of warding that's purely perfunctory in nature.

 

[smootrk]

Yes, heaven forbid that Dungeons & Dragons should have anything dragon-themed in it. :\

/sarcasm

Dragon Shamans are cool and not at all inappropriate for D&D. They might get a little overpowered if you throw in Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon, maybe, but otherwise they are fine.

I understand that others might not share my view that the dragons are adversaries, not the basis for classes, races, half-dragon templates (for players), etc. They really just don't fit in my (our) style of setting and game play... we are very traditional with the roles. It all just depends on the campaign. If I joined one where the setting was geared to Dragon-kin and Half-Dragons (doubt I would but.. if I did) then I would have a different opinion on those additions.

 

[Felon]

I understand that others might not share my view that the dragons are adversaries, not the basis for classes, races, half-dragon templates (for players), etc.

I find the notion that just because the game is called "Dungeons & Dragons" that there should have a lot of dragon-themed elements to be a bit overly simplistic. But I do like the idea of having support classes in D&D, so I'd certainly be willing to give one a dragon shaman a shot.

The dragonfire adept has been played in our group for a couple months now. It seems like a "girlfriend" class to me, despite the player's various schemes to turn it into some kind of nuker.

 

[AllisterH]

Well, that's basic, I'll give you that.

A beguiler could replace a certain type of sorcerer. Just not a nuker (which, I understand, is synonymous with sorcerer to some folks).

A beguiler is far better in the areana of casting enchantment and illusion spells. The sorcerer can't replace him there. If a sorcerer tried, he'd come up short on slots and certainly wouldn't have all the groovy buffs and utility spells that the beguiler has that aren't enchantments or illusions.

A sorcerer wouldn't have six skill points a level, or a beguiler's obscene skill list, or the ability to cast spells in light armor, or the ability to find traps, or the saving throw and spell penetration bonuses that surprise casting provides.

Beguilers are amanzingly effective, without ever having to chuck a lightning bolt--although thanks to having Use Magic Device on their skill list, that's hardly out of the realm of possibility. Nor is Cure Moderate Wounds for that matter. I know, I see it happen every game session.

The same can be said for a warmage (it does have more than just evoicative spells) or a dread necromancer (similarly, more than just necromantic spells) but in a 4 person party, I don't think a beguiler can fill the arcane role of the party even with an UMD.

For example, the utility of the FLY/Overland Flight spell can not be discounted, yet, a beguiler is out of luck. As well, polymorph is so uber not JUST because of its combat potential but because of sheer plain utility.

Ironically, getting back to the original post, a beguiler I do believe is only slightly weaker than a core-only sorceror. However, give me access to the Spell Compendium though and
it's no contest.

 

[Felon]

The same can be said for a warmage (it does have more than just evoicative spells) or a dread necromancer (similarly, more than just necromantic spells) but in a 4 person party, I don't think a beguiler can fill the arcane role of the party even with an UMD.

He can fill a certain arcane role, just not that of nuker. Using Complete Mage terms, he can be the booster, the controller, the spy, and the strategist. He cannot be the blaster, sniper, summoner, or necromaster.

He can fill the role of the rogue almost without reservation.