Beguiler vs. themed Wizard?

[Wandering Star]

I've already statted up my gnome rogue for a new campaign starting soon with a view to advancing him as an illusionist later, with a selection of enchantment spells for a certain style of caster (as I'm bored of the basic flash-wizards I've played previously). I'm looking for an interesting character to play with interesting strategy options, subtle control and deception magic, and i think the concept fits the flavour of gnomes quite well.

Then I saw the beguiler class from the PHBII. I'm now seriously contemplating redoing my gnome as a beguiler. So I'm looking for advice. How does a beguiler compare to a wizard that focusses on illusion and enchantment spells with a feat selection to support it? I'm sure one of the drawbacks will be a loss of flexibility, as I wouldnt be able to add the odd conjuration spell into the mix to really keep my foes guessing. What are the pros and cons of each class? I'm really interested in seeing how the two compare.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Beguiler is essentially an Illusionist or Enchanter who multiclassed in Rogue, all rolled up into one neat package.

That means that even giving up 2 schools, the Illusionist or Enchanter will be the more powerful & flexible spellcaster by far. The spellcaster, however, will not be capable of all the nifty rogue-ey stuff without multiclassing.

Many of the same feats that support the Specialist Wiz's abilities will be fine for the Beguiler's spellcasting. If you use the DCv1, the Bloodline Feats will let you add spells to any spontaneous arcane caster's spell-list, dependent upon your lineage.

 

[Blue]

I really like the beguiler for that niche. It's flavorful, has good skill points and skill selection. We've got one in a game I'm currently in and their spell selection is very useful.

Now, a specialist wizard will probably have more outlying spells - ones that aren't as thematic but of general utility. I wouldn't suggest a rogue/beguiler as the only arcane caster in the group since it won't have the broadness of spell selection. But they do have a lot of useful spells that are within the theme, from glitterdust to mage armor to invisibility to haste.

All in all, for what you are describing, a beguiler sounds like a great fit. I'd play it.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Well, I disagree with the assertion that the specialist illusionist/enchanter wizard will be more powerful than the beguiler.

The beguiler will be able to cast a far greater variety of spells at any given moment, due to his spontaneous casting and huge spell list. He has more hit points , can wear light armor, and has a better skill list and more skill points than a wizard. He will be able to act in the surprise round more often than the wizard because he can have decent Spot and Listen skills.

There are even prestige classes and feats that let the beguiler cast spells off his list. For example, a Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Fiendblooded 2 can add any single spell with the [Fire descriptor to his list] So he can add fireball, or orb of fire, and take Empower Spell and now he is dishing out damage like a sorcerer, but with 3 times as many spells known, at character level 8.

A beguiler that wants to have the movement powers of a wizard can simply get a RuneStaff with the transport spells in it and use it via Use Magic Device. Sure, this costs money, but so do all the spells that the wizard has to scribe into his book.

A beguiler will be able to reliably use any wand a wizard can use, plus all the wands that a wizard can't use, because the DC20 UMD check required to do so is easy for him to make.


The main advantages the Wizard has are scroll use plus gaining access to spells a level before the beguiler, who uses the sorcerer progression.


At character level 9, a beguiler can have (12 ranks + 4synergy +5 competence bonus from item) +21 Use Magic Device skill, which means that he is still unable to reliably use scrolls of spells not on his list. I have not found a way to further increase the beguiler's ability to use scrolls, without directly boosting his CHA, which is prohibitively expensive.

Ken

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

It depends on what you want from your character.

Go with the wizard if you want a wider range of spells, a familiar or power from losing the familiar, scribe scroll, and all the knowledges. You'll have to be okay with having lousy attack and hit point progression for those levels.

Go with beguiler if you want to keep up your skill progression, be able to wear armor while casting, and have better hit point progression than the wizard.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, I disagree with the assertion that the specialist illusionist/enchanter wizard will be more powerful than the beguiler.

As a spontaneous caster, the Beguiler has more instant flexibility than the SpecWiz, but with a selection of spells that dwarfs the Beguiler, the SpecWiz has the edge in power and overall flexibility.

Depending on school selection, the SpecWiz will have access to Necromancy, Evocation, Conjuration or Transmutation spells.

If/when his illusions or enchantments fails, that SpecWiz will be able to blast, buff, or debuff in ways no Beguiler will ever be able to.

All without depending upon other items.

 

[Greg K]

If you use Unearthed Arcana, there are also variant special abililties for the specialist that can be exchanged for the the familiar, scribe scroll, and the two specialist bonus spells.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And of course, PHB2 (or was it CompMage) has an ASF called Focused specialist that makes the SpecWiz more powerful within his specialization...

But that doesn't help this kind of PC- he really needs the streetwise abilities & other bennies the Beguiler gives.

Its 2 ways of doing the same thing- the SpecWiz/Rogue is more powerful overall, but the Beguiler is more efficient and focused.

And the Beguiler casts in armor...

 

[Wolfwood2]

Then I saw the beguiler class from the PHBII. I'm now seriously contemplating redoing my gnome as a beguiler. So I'm looking for advice. How does a beguiler compare to a wizard that focusses on illusion and enchantment spells with a feat selection to support it? I'm sure one of the drawbacks will be a loss of flexibility, as I wouldnt be able to add the odd conjuration spell into the mix to really keep my foes guessing. What are the pros and cons of each class? I'm really interested in seeing how the two compare.

I've been playing a Beguiler for a while. They do in fact get a few spells that are not illusions or enchantments. Not a lot, but enough that they can do some party buffing and/or battlefield control even when enchantment and illusion aren't of any use.

Beguiler pros: You probably have something useful you can be doing in any given situation. Lots of situational flexibility, allowing you to have clever ideas and implement them immediately. A maxed out Bluff score can let you manipulate enemies into a bad position for the start of a fight. (On at least two occasions I have bluffed enemies into thinking the party was allies... to their quick misfirtune.) Having loads of skill points feels great.

Beguiler cons: You get your highest level spells one level slower than a wizard, and that is huge. The Beguiler list gives some nice transmutations and conjurations at lower levels (Glitterdust FTW!) but at higher levels your spell selection things considerably. Higher levels are when enchantment/illusion are least useful. You never get the good movement spells like the teleport subschool or fly.

I haven't taken a beguiler to high levels yet, but I'm getting the feeling that high levels is where they start to fall far behind the specialized wizard.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I agree with you that the Beguiler high level spell selection is lacking.

You have to mitigate that with their Expanded Knowledge ability, and hopefully with Prestige Classes.

The Fiend Blooded prestige class I mentioned earlier will allow a Beguiler to add 5 spells to his class list from the Necromancy school or with the [Fire] descriptor, without sacrificing Beguiler spellcasting progression at all. All of these spells can be 4th level or higher, and can be from any spellcaster's list -- you could even add druid or cleric spells if you chose. If you take this path, I believe that you will maintain your flexibility advantage vs a specialist wizard, and as a practical matter you will be able to match him in power -- using all of your slots for damage spells when needed, while having the entire beguiler list available as needed.

The focused specialist does look like it would outpower a beguiler, but what a cost in flexibility -- he has to give up 3 schools. I suppose I would give up Evocation, Necromancy, and Enchantment, and make a Specialist Conjurer, since Conjuration is the school with by far the broadest scope. 3/4 of the spells he casts per day will have to be conjuration. The beguiler on the other hand can choose freely from all the spells on his list.

Ken