Beguilers - too powerful?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Generally, I see Save-or-Suck and Save-or-Die as possibly game-disrupting, but rarely as effective. Please could someone "prove" to me that this is not the case. I have always been underwhelmed with most SoD/SoS spells in actual gameplay. I know that my Fighters regularly roll 1s and 2s on Fortitude Saves vs Death, but this doesn't seem to work on most NPCs. (Especially not all those high HD beasts...).

Maybe it would be better to do this in another thread...

 

[roguerouge]

I just figured out that silent image, a figment, is a type of illusion spell that does work on mindless undead, as it is not on the immunity to all mind-affecting effects list: "charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects." And that means that by the time you get to intelligent undead, you've got options at your higher level spells to use against them too.

 

[roguerouge]

Generally, I see Save-or-Suck and Save-or-Die as possibly game-disrupting, but rarely as effective. Please could someone "prove" to me that this is not the case. I have always been underwhelmed with most SoD/SoS spells in actual gameplay. I know that my Fighters regularly roll 1s and 2s on Fortitude Saves vs Death, but this doesn't seem to work on most NPCs. (Especially not all those high HD beasts...).

Maybe it would be better to do this in another thread...

It depends on the player. If the player stupidly makes your fighter make Fort saves, of course battlefield control spells will not be as effective as they could be. But if that beguiler make your fighter make WILL saves, your fighter will be his slave much more frequently. It's the opposite with wizard opponents: target with Fort save spells. Use Reflex save spells against clerics. It's all about tailoring those kinds of spells to your opponents.

It also depends on your DM. Frankly, there's a sub-type of DM that believes that a party that defeats an encounter through a single illusion or charm spell is cheating, robbing the other players of fun. They also seem to believe that fun is trudging through every last encounter, leaving a bloody river in your wake, while unfun is using spells in unusual ways to get your party to the main encounter healthy and ready to rock. If a player finds their illusionist or enchanter in a game run by such a DM, have your PC commit suicide and play a conjurer at the earliest opportunity. 'Cause it has nothing to do with your class and everything to do with your DM's preferences.

That is the REAL limitation of the beguiler: it's a class very dependent on DM adjudications.

 

[Folly]

I have always found Beguiler to be a power class but limited by encounter type. I do not see this as a problem since Rogues, and Rangers are very similar. Yes most of their effects are SoD or SoS but when you start tweaking their DC it can get ugly and fast.
Lets go for level 10-
Gray Elf with a starting int of 20
+2 from bumps for a 22 base int
+4 item for a 26 int
18 base DC
Spell focus and Greater Spell focus +2
20 base DC
I believe their surprise ability gives them an additional +2 at this level, and with greater invis you should always be able to use it.
So you end up with 22+Spell Level for your spells.
This means that for your highest level spells are 26 or 27. (or 24/25 for your non-focus spells)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Beguiler gets plenty of save-or-lose spells, which many consider better than direct damage. They make Bards and Rogues ask why they bothered to show up. With their spell learning class feature (and possibly some clever PrC levelling to gain these at the optimum levels), they can pick up the shadow conj/evoc. line and spontaneously drop any spell from one of those schools they happen to need, at the expense of a slightly higher level slot.

All the arguments about limits by encounter type screw rogues, bards, and the like WAY more than Beguilers, since Beguiler's spell list still at least gives them some options in such scenarios. Also, I believe there was a metamagic feat somewhere (Dragon mag?) that let you use mind-affecting spells on undead for +1 level adjustment. If it does exist, that roughly cuts the encounters where they're "in trouble" in half.

Finally, the CM feat that causes all who have to save vs. an enchantment effect (whether they succeed or not) to suffer -2 attack and AC for a round stacks VERY nicely with Beguiler. Not saying it breaks them or anything, just a good combo I figured was worth mentioning.

 

[Eldragon]

I see the beguiler as balanced, but only by wild swings of the pendulum.

In other words, In some situations they are way too good, and in others they are just useless. Which is a difficult kind of class in any campaign, a DM needs to be on his toes to make sure he varies the encounters to make sure the Beguiler is kept in check.

 

[szilard]

The power level of the Beguiler totally depends upon the campaign and play style of your group.

In a hack-and-slash game, a Beguiler is a good utility guy and combat support, but is a bit weak.

In a game where cleverness, trickery, and/or social interaction take center stage, a Beguiler can be just about the most powerful class around.

-Stuart

 

[moritheil]

IMO, the Beguiler is a very powerful and very useful class because they already have all the tools they need, without being exceedingly complicated and without dabbling into PrCs.

Yes, and the flip side of it is that they don't gain that much from going into PrCs, with the exception of perhaps three (Mindbender, Shadowcraft Gnome, and possibly Divine Oracle.) They therefore should not be compared to straight sorcs or wizards, but multiclassed ones. Comparing a beguiler to, say, IoSV, I don't really think they are too powerful. They are useful, but in terms of raw power, a carefully built wiz or sorc can do more. The inability of the beguiler to deal direct damage and use spells like disintegrate limits his or her contributions at higher levels (assuming a standard "dungeon crawl" campaign.)

 

[moritheil]

Also, I believe there was a metamagic feat somewhere (Dragon mag?) that let you use mind-affecting spells on undead for +1 level adjustment. If it does exist, that roughly cuts the encounters where they're "in trouble" in half.

To be fair, Bards get a similar feat that lets them affect undead with music. And if Dragon Mag is fair game, then they have the powerful Mourner PrC. I would not say a Bard is more powerful than a Beguiler, but the specific examples you chose also benefit Bards.

Finally, the CM feat that causes all who have to save vs. an enchantment effect (whether they succeed or not) to suffer -2 attack and AC for a round stacks VERY nicely with Beguiler. Not saying it breaks them or anything, just a good combo I figured was worth mentioning.

I'm actually curious as to whether or not you've used it. It looks good on paper but I find that in actual campaign use my beguiler feat slots always go towards survivability and increasing save DCs. I do suppose that something like Whelming Blast would be better if you had that feat, but the spells that you ordinarily use in enchantment are save or lose, and IMO it would be worth it to instead increase your save DC if you are casting those spells.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Anecdotal evidence and all that, but I've played two Beguilers in PbP games for a while now, and they've more-or-less yet to do something truly useful in combat. I think that between the two of them, they've downed one kobold mook (they are levels 3 and 10). However, they have participated in lots of fun side-intrigue when going in and around towns instead of out in the wilderness or a dungeon. This, however, depends on the willingness of the GM to throw you those kinds of things.

I've found that despite the deceptive combo of high Int and good skill points per level, I run out of skill points faster than for any other class, since the Beguiler pretty much requires Concentration and Bluff maxed, then I like to go for Cha and Int skills like Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, Diplomacy, etc, and the group expects me to have sneaking and trap-disarming skills (thanks to the Trapfinding ability, the Beguiler is often de facto the only one who can find the toughest traps, unless you also have a Rogue, in which case good luck with undead).

At low levels, the Beguiler's offensive power is stymied against a wide swathe of opponents. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, etc are completely immune. Many other monster types have good Will saves and high HD for their CR. This leaves you with the option of making an underWhelming (pun intended) damaging attack with a Will Save on it or doing a save-or-out with a Will Save on it (Sleep, Colour Spray, etc), so unless the monster has enough HD to force your hand, the choice is clear. However, if you aren't playing that crazy gray elf in post 14 who somehow has enough point buy for 20 Int and adequate numbers in the other important Beguiler stats (which are generally everything but Strength and Wisdom), you often wind up with about 16 starting Int, and so either DC 14 spells or DC 15 if you're taking Spell Focus and delaying Improved Feint, which should usually be picked up ASAP to allow for Swift Cloaked Casting. Opponents other than low-HD-humanoid-with-Fighter/Rogue/Warrior-class-levels don't often fail DC 14 Will saves (in my case, just one kobold mook has failed so far), and the Beguiler doesn't even really have good combat buffs to start off, so you usually wind up making like a Wizard out of spells and firing crossbows.